Episode 26 - From Knowledge to Relationship: The Journey with Dr. Mitsch
Summary
The primary focus of our discussion centers around the concept of the spiritual journey, particularly as articulated in the second phase, which we designate as the learning or discipled life. It is essential to comprehend that during this phase, individuals often conflate knowledge about God with a genuine relationship with Him, leading to a superficial understanding of faith. We explore the critical role of mentorship in guiding one through this intricate process, emphasizing the necessity of discerning between merely accumulating information and actively engaging in a transformative relationship with the divine. Furthermore, we address the inherent pitfalls of legalism and pride that may arise during this stage, highlighting the importance of humility and the acknowledgment of one’s need for grace. As we navigate this terrain, we invite listeners to reflect upon their own spiritual journeys, recognizing the vital distinction between knowing about God and truly knowing God Himself.
Show Notes
Dr. Ray Mitsch's insightful podcast episode traverses the intricate pathways of spiritual development, particularly focusing on the critical journey of faith and the indispensable role of mentorship therein. He introduces the concept of recognizing one's current spiritual position as a prerequisite for effective progression along the spiritual path. This notion is pivotal; without awareness of where one stands, navigating the complexities of faith becomes exceedingly challenging. Dr. Mitsch emphasizes that clarity of understanding acts as a catalyst for growth, while ignorance can lead to stagnation and confusion, underscoring the necessity of self-awareness in one's spiritual journey. The significance of mentorship is pronounced, as Dr. Mitsch warns against the tendency to create followers in one's own image rather than in the likeness of Christ. He advocates for the careful selection of mentors who possess a deep understanding of the spiritual terrain, thereby ensuring that guidance is relevant and transformative.
Transitioning into the second phase of the spiritual journey, often referred to as the learning or discipled life, Dr. Mitsch articulates a critical distinction between mere knowledge about God and an authentic relationship with Him. Drawing upon the writings of notable theologians, he cautions against the seductive nature of legalism that can infiltrate one's faith when knowledge accumulation becomes the primary focus. He stresses that true spiritual maturity is characterized not by the breadth of knowledge but by the depth of one’s relationship with God. Dr. Mitsch's reflections challenge listeners to cultivate an experiential faith that transcends intellectual understanding, urging them to seek a personal connection with the divine that is both meaningful and transformative.
In conclusion, Dr. Mitsch encapsulates the essence of the discussion by highlighting the importance of community in spiritual growth. He emphasizes that engaging in fellowship with others on similar journeys provides essential support and encouragement, allowing individuals to navigate the challenges of faith more effectively. This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the invaluable role that mentorship and community play in spiritual development, inviting listeners to reflect on their own journeys and to seek authentic relationships that foster deeper connections with God. Dr. Mitsch’s insights resonate profoundly, encouraging a shift from a purely knowledge-based approach to one that prioritizes genuine relational engagement with the divine.
Takeaways:
- The podcast emphasizes the importance of understanding one's current position on the spiritual journey to effectively move forward.
- Dr. Ray Mitsch discusses the critical role of mentors, stressing that a mentor must appreciate the unique nature of an individual's spiritual journey.
- The distinction between knowing about God and knowing God personally is a central theme in the episode, urging listeners to seek relational knowledge.
- A significant challenge highlighted is the potential for legalism, where individuals impose their journey's structure onto others, leading to rigidity in faith.
- Mitsch warns against the temptation of relying excessively on structured knowledge about God, which can detract from personal experience and relationship with Him.
- The conversation also addresses the concept of 'tribal mentality' in faith communities, where an 'us versus them' worldview can hinder genuine connections with others.
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Transcript
You're listening to the outpost podcast with Dr.
Speaker A:Ray Mitch.
Speaker A:Greetings and welcome everybody to another edition of the UN Post podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Dr.
Speaker A:Ray Mitch, your host.
Speaker A:Thanks so much for joining me and taking some time out of your schedule to listen.
Speaker A:I always think of this when March hits.
Speaker A:I grew up in Indiana and pretty much basketball is king there or well nigh a religion.
Speaker A:And in a lot of ways, we were having March Madness in Indiana way before the rest of the country got March Madness.
Speaker A:It's become quite the phenomenon.
Speaker A:I think it's probably blown up partly because of the, the betting that goes into it and, and people get more invested in it because they put their money in it and all that jazz.
Speaker A:But be that as in May, you know, this is old hat in Indiana.
Speaker A:It's this way all the time.
Speaker A:And the saying certainly in Indiana used to be that March comes in like a lion and out like a lamb.
Speaker A:And I'd probably change that in, in Colorado today to it comes in like a wolf and sheep's clothing.
Speaker A:And you think that you might actually have a warm March and then you get dumped on of wet, sticky snow.
Speaker A:There have been times where, well, here in Colorado at least, March is the first or second snowiest month of the year, which is supremely ironic.
Speaker A:We kind of in, in the Midwest, we kind of assume that we're sort of out of the woods by the time we get to the end of March.
Speaker A:I've done silent retreats before in early April, and one in particular I can think of where we got 32 inches of snow just on Saturday alone.
Speaker A:And we usually did our retreats on Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night, and then leave on Sunday.
Speaker A:So it's not quite as simple as the sayings go.
Speaker A:Of course, nobody goes to Farmers Almanac to figure out what, what the weather patterns are going to be.
Speaker A:And so because of that, that's, that's, that is what I always think of.
Speaker A:I don't know what you think of when, when March comes in, a lot of people do think of March Madness.
Speaker A:It is one of my favorite times of year.
Speaker A:If I had the time and the ability, I'd probably watch all of the games at the very front end, which are 64.
Speaker A:But I got to pick and choose because of my time and everything else.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But it's a, it's a fun time of year for sure.
Speaker A:We get to celebrate my grandson's birthday and so much, so much more that is very much a part of this.
Speaker A:So anyway, thanks for joining me.
Speaker A:Welcome to March and And as I am prone to do, I like to just make sure everybody's on the same page with what they have listened into.
Speaker A:Obviously, it's not a weather report, but the podcast itself was designed to at least initiate the conversation around faith psychology and spiritual formation.
Speaker A:And as I have said before in other podcasts, that that's not a typical combination.
Speaker A:Certainly psychology, they are a dime a dozen out there, for sure.
Speaker A:I think in a lot of ways, what we're trying to accomplish here is a little unique and a little tough because it's that we're living at this intersection rather than going down one street or another.
Speaker A:So what my hope is in Stained Glass International, which is the parent company here or the parent ministry, is to create a space online, at least initially.
Speaker A:I'd love to see them become realities in person, but.
Speaker A:But to create a space where the doubters and the confused and the wounded and beat up and beat down and the bent and bruised who believe their lives are a disappointment to God can feel known and accepted as they are, not as they should be, and thereby making them able to know other people as well.
Speaker A:So we want to be a place where people can bump into the biblical Jesus and you can say, well, what does this have to do with the biblical Jesus when we're talking about spiritual journey?
Speaker A:And I think the reality is, when you think about it, Jesus was bumping into people who fit in most of the phases.
Speaker A:I'm not going to say stages because it annoys me, but phases of the spiritual journey.
Speaker A:He bumped into all those people during his ministry.
Speaker A:And I think if we took an eye for that, to looking at Scripture, we would actually see it and be able to understand exactly what his interactions were with specific people in specific ways that was very, well, kind of put together just for them.
Speaker A:And the bent and bruised and the broken and beat up, they were all part of the groups of people that Jesus interacted with.
Speaker A:And I think it's worth our while to pay attention to that and to see that.
Speaker A:So pull up a chair, get comfortable, relax.
Speaker A:Let's.
Speaker A:Let's talk about the things that are really matter, that really matter to you in life and living and relationships and just in your relationship with Jesus himself.
Speaker A:So what we're coming in on here is this is the third.
Speaker A:Third podcast.
Speaker A:I'm not sure how long this thing is going to go, but now we've got six stages to get through because I'm borrowing my language or concepts from a book called the Critical Stages in the Life of Faith by Janet Hegberg.
Speaker A:And Robert Gulick.
Speaker A:So I'm borrowing concepts from them, but then what I'm trying to do is kind of explode them in meaning and application, really in a lot of ways.
Speaker A:So before we go any further, though, the two key principles I want to keep in our mind before we start in on looking at the second phase of the journey is, first and foremost, you can't move anywhere if you don't know where you are.
Speaker A:And that's really why I'm doing this series, is so that you can get an idea of where you are on the spiritual journey.
Speaker A:Now, remember, as I said before, and Hagberg and Gooley talk about them in terms of stages.
Speaker A:And that, as I've said again before, is our temptation is to think way too rigidly about that, so that there's this bright line between stage one and stage two, when in fact it's more like climbing a mountain in a spiral fashion and the paths collapse down on themselves.
Speaker A:And so I can be in two stages at the same time.
Speaker A:And that's very much a part of what we're talking about and looking at.
Speaker A:So we've got to be able to know where we are in order to chart a course for where we're going.
Speaker A:And that's the first principle.
Speaker A:And then the second one is you can't lead someone to a place you've never been.
Speaker A:And I think most of our efforts in friendship and other things is to help somebody, and we want to help them perhaps to what we have found.
Speaker A:And if we're not going to take the time to look and figure out where we are, then we really can't lead somebody someplace we've never been.
Speaker A:And a guide is always helpful.
Speaker A:And that's sort of what we're talking about in these first couple of phases of the journey about guides.
Speaker A:And I talked last time about how important it was to choose a mentor wisely, because they have to have an appreciation for the nature of the journey that you're on.
Speaker A:And if they don't have that, then ultimately we end up creating.
Speaker A:If I'm the mentor, I end up creating people in my own image rather than in Jesus's image.
Speaker A:So that's that.
Speaker A:We looked at stage one that was referred to as the converted life.
Speaker A:We looked at some of the stages or the issues that come up during that time, which are really, really important because they put in place the.
Speaker A:The ongoing journey, and.
Speaker A:And we're bringing it with us, and we bring ourselves with us into this journey.
Speaker A:So we bring all of the issues they don't just go away when I.
Speaker A:I ask Jesus into my heart or I say that he's going to be the Lord of my life and I'm going to realign all of my values and beliefs and everything to Him.
Speaker A:You know, we're still bringing us with us.
Speaker A:And if we don't know what the us is, then it will ultimately contaminate our faith.
Speaker A:And we'll think that that's how faith is, when in fact it's our faith and something else.
Speaker A:And that's a lot of times what we see.
Speaker A:So what we're heading into in terms of phase two, and I'll just call them phases here instead of stages, because it's.
Speaker A:It annoys me enough.
Speaker A:So is what is often referred to as the learning or discipled life.
Speaker A:Now, this is really where the role of the mentor explodes.
Speaker A:Now, phase one, we were talking about choosing somebody to follow, to apprentice under, about doing this spiritual journey.
Speaker A:Well, now we're looking and digging in in this particular phase to our faith and getting to know what's going on.
Speaker A:And ultimately, what the emphasis is here is about knowing God.
Speaker A:Knowing about God.
Speaker A:All right, And I will.
Speaker A:I'm going to make a distinction along the way here that there is a difference between knowing God and knowing about God.
Speaker A:Knowing about God is very much like treating him as an object to get to know and the bits and pieces of knowledge I have about him, but knowing God.
Speaker A:And JI Packer makes this distinction in his book Knowing God.
Speaker A:And he basically says, look, there are a lot of Christians out there that know a lot about God but have never known Him.
Speaker A:And that's knowing in the sense of the biblical sense of knowing, which I'll talk about here in a second.
Speaker A:So during this phase of the journey, the new convert or apprentice or disciple begins to get grounded in the basics of faith.
Speaker A:And in some churches, it is a class system where people go through each class and progress through their spiritual development that way.
Speaker A:The thing that I would want to make you aware of is there's an upside and a downside to this.
Speaker A:The upside is, is that it gives us a certain map to know what this, the growth and passages through faith or progress through faith is going to look like.
Speaker A:And there's an upside to that.
Speaker A:There's a certain level of clarity and certainty that we have.
Speaker A:And that's why we like our stages model.
Speaker A:And that's why I want to move away from it, because it creates the expectation of clarity when our reality doesn't match that.
Speaker A:And then usually when we have a reality that doesn't match it.
Speaker A:We think there's something wrong with us rather than the expectations we have brought with us into our faith.
Speaker A:And that is very much a part of this.
Speaker A:So what's the downside?
Speaker A:The downside is it tempts us into thinking that the entire spiritual journey is just the same way.
Speaker A:So I organize this information, I gain all the information I can and knowledge I can, and there, that's enough.
Speaker A:Now I'm a mature believer in Jesus, and the reality is that.
Speaker A:That you're not.
Speaker A:And I tell you that from experience, because that's where I started.
Speaker A:I have curated a lot of knowledge about God, and it wasn't until I actually got ambushed by Jesus at some point that it changed the landscape of what knowledge meant.
Speaker A:And that was very much a part of my experience.
Speaker A:And I, you know, I knew plenty of stuff.
Speaker A:I loved curating information and knowledge.
Speaker A:I was an only child.
Speaker A:I would collect information like it was a priceless jewel that I collected that I could then pull out and to impress people with.
Speaker A:And so what ends up happening is we end up structuring our spiritual journey around this idea that, that there are stages, there are places that I go, there's a map that I can follow that God will give me that map, and when he does, I'll be good to go.
Speaker A:And the problem is we end up depending more on the map than the person of Jesus himself.
Speaker A:And so we confer less and less with him and more and more with the map.
Speaker A:And that's what the temptation ultimately is.
Speaker A:The thing that blows this whole thing up is what happens when God doesn't act according to our plan or our map and some obstacle appears that is not on the map.
Speaker A:And that's where things begin to crumble.
Speaker A:And it's a challenge.
Speaker A:It is very much of a challenge in this phase of the spiritual journey to have that.
Speaker A:So when a crisis hits, something unexpected hits, what do we do?
Speaker A:We go back to what we know rather than we use what we've learned.
Speaker A:And that's a key element in the challenge of this stage or this phase of learning in the spiritual journey is life doesn't stop while I grow.
Speaker A:I'm sure most of us would wish it does, but life doesn't stop when I grow.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And because of that, then a crisis is probably going to hit or something is going to hit that's not on my map.
Speaker A:And since I've been spending all of my time looking at my map and not at my Savior, what do I do?
Speaker A:And usually in a lot of cases we blame God for a faulty map rather than the nature of our relationship with the God of the map, if you want to put it that way.
Speaker A:So in, in a lot of cases, what's very important for, for people at this stage of the journey is to be fed what Hebrews refers to as spiritual milk.
Speaker A:They're not ready for meat yet.
Speaker A:They, they really need to be nurtured in their faith.
Speaker A:They are oftentimes find that with a strong pastor or a Bible teacher or something like that, a book for sure, we have more resources.
Speaker A:It is mind boggling and blurring in I think a lot of people's minds about where do I turn for the resources that would actually help me on this journey.
Speaker A:And you know, for my story, I accepted Jesus and said, okay, I'm going to reorient my life to him on the banks of the Thames in England.
Speaker A:That's where I made that profession of faith.
Speaker A:And from that point forward I had little to no discipleship or mentoring or anybody.
Speaker A:I was on my own.
Speaker A:And all I could do was go back to what I knew to do.
Speaker A:And that was, you know, it wasn't anything really because I didn't have anybody to give me those kinds of resources.
Speaker A:They didn't exist, quite honestly.
Speaker A:And I'm sure Nav Press and all the other kind of canned approaches were out there, but not in the church I was attending or where I was.
Speaker A:So I slapped together what I best knew to do and that was read books and listen to sermons in my local church and, and learn as much as I could based on modeling by the people around me.
Speaker A:But I did not have somebody holding my hand.
Speaker A:Like a lot of times people.
Speaker A:We need to have a mentor do that.
Speaker A:So what's familiar, what's important here is a growing familiarity with the Bible and the teaching resources of the day.
Speaker A:And depending on the church, you can have a lot of great resources there and that are available to you or listening to a pastor online.
Speaker A:We didn't have any of that.
Speaker A:So you have podcasts from places like Parkside Church in Cleveland with Alistair Beg or some others speaker or pastor in a church, whatever it might be.
Speaker A:And so, you know, there's a lot of resources out there.
Speaker A:We are so flush with them, it's almost like there are too many.
Speaker A:And at this point in the game we need somebody to make some recommendations to us because we don't know where to start, particularly at this point in the journey.
Speaker A:So it is helpful to have and to find a pastor.
Speaker A:The only caveat, the only Caution I would give you in that is one of the questions I encourage people to consider is that when you're sitting listening to a pastor preach, what do they emphasize more, truth or grace?
Speaker A:Or do they allow there to be a certain tension between those two things and don't work overtime to remove that tension.
Speaker A:Now what I mean is, because I've been there, I've been a teaching pastor, it is really easy to emphasize all the things that are true that are found in scripture.
Speaker A:Nothing wrong with that.
Speaker A:At the same time, there is oftentimes very little mention of what happens when I don't do that or what happens when I just flat out say I don't want to do that.
Speaker A:What then?
Speaker A:And it doesn't mean and again, where I'm heading, so don't get there before me.
Speaker A:Isn't what grace just pats us on the head and says, oh, that's okay, just get back in the game and do the best you can.
Speaker A:No, no.
Speaker A:Grace empowers us to look fully into my distorted, my self serving methods of handling life and controlling things and people around them.
Speaker A:It challenges me to look at fully in the face and see it for what it is.
Speaker A:And that is me making God in my own image rather than me trying to become like Jesus and become Christ like.
Speaker A:And so, you know, it really is easy to hear somebody that talks a good great game in truth, but doesn't leave this gray area between truth and grace and spend some time there because if we do, if we allow that space there to be exist, I think we might actually meet God there because it's this intersection of truth and grace, not truth and grace.
Speaker A:It's the intersection of both of them at the same time.
Speaker A:So it's a both and, and rather than an either or far and away.
Speaker A:Speaking truth and teaching truth is way easier because there's so many other conditional parts of trying to live with this tension between these two things in us and leaning into our identity in Christ rather than our identity in being identified with our sin.
Speaker A:And if we remove that tension, we will grow, but we'll grow into a way of thinking that God only is concerned about truth alone.
Speaker A:I'll give grace lip service.
Speaker A:I'll say, yeah, yeah, there's grace for my salvation, but what happens with living the rest of my life?
Speaker A:So the emphasis during this phase is very much knowing God and, and again, there are pitfalls in all of these places as we go through that because there is active curation, if you're familiar with that term.
Speaker A:A lot of times Librarians are referred to as curators, curators of books.
Speaker A:And so what do they do?
Speaker A:They organize them and they put them in place and make it easier for us to find them.
Speaker A:And we don't have to do that as much today because of online resources.
Speaker A:But it is the active curation of knowledge about God, and ultimately it takes us away from the personal experience with God.
Speaker A:And this is what I mentioned earlier.
Speaker A:There is a temptation for a lot of us, and I think some of it is growing up in the world of social media to curate knowledge about God, just like we curate images that we show of ourselves in the world around us.
Speaker A:And the odd thing about it is that the curated knowledge we create, we think that's God when it isn't.
Speaker A:And so the things that we read in Scripture, that we take the little X acto knife and say, whoa, I'm going to take that out, because that doesn't fit with my image of God.
Speaker A:My God doesn't do.
Speaker A:You might have heard people say that, but the God there did.
Speaker A:So which one is right?
Speaker A:And that is very much what happens to us, I think, when we curate knowledge of God that way we treat him as an object rather than a being to relate to.
Speaker A:And we begin to believe that the image we've created is God himself, rather than what we don't see is the image we have created is.
Speaker A:Is actually in our image.
Speaker A:And there's a very famous quote from Blaise Pascal that once said, God made man in his own image and man returned the favor.
Speaker A:GK Chesterton repeated that same quote.
Speaker A:And I think we do that.
Speaker A:And so the God that we make in our own image, we worship that God.
Speaker A:And then when he doesn't come through, we wonder why.
Speaker A:And it's like, but he's in my image.
Speaker A:It's not the God of scripture, not found in the pages of Scripture and in the incarnation of Jesus Christ.
Speaker A:Well, that's not it.
Speaker A:Because the incarnate God in Jesus says, I want you to believe something.
Speaker A:And that is that I know everything about you.
Speaker A:All the dark skeletons, all the impulses, all the challenges, all the anxieties, all of it.
Speaker A:I know all of it.
Speaker A:And there's one thing I want you to not forget, and that is trust me enough to know and believe that I love you as you are, not as you should be, because you're never going to be what you should be.
Speaker A:And that is jarring.
Speaker A:And that does not fit the image of God because we make him as fussy and as pedantic and picky.
Speaker A:And ocd, ish and all of those things as we are.
Speaker A:And we wonder why our spiritual lives suffer.
Speaker A:So remember that knowledge in Scripture.
Speaker A:And we're talking about the curation of knowledge here, right?
Speaker A:Knowledge in Scripture doesn't mean the collection of information.
Speaker A:It means the knowledge about and the experience of God himself.
Speaker A:And the images that we see in Scripture are very vivid of people that are mentoring other people in the beginnings of their faith.
Speaker A:Naomi and Ruth are prime example.
Speaker A:Ruth was a Moabite, and that's the offshoot clans that came out of Lot.
Speaker A:And so she was not a believer.
Speaker A:And here's Naomi taking her under her wing and talking to her about her relationship with Boaz and so much more.
Speaker A:And we see it also with Timothy and Paul.
Speaker A:Paul knew Timothy from the time that he was a little boy.
Speaker A:And that's the kind of mentoring.
Speaker A:And so Paul, I'm sure that a lot of things Paul put into the books of.
Speaker A:We call the Bible, the letters he sent.
Speaker A:And when he says, imitate me as I imitate Christ, you can bet your bottom dollar he said that to Timothy, too.
Speaker A:And Timothy is this young pastor.
Speaker A:I believe it was in Ephesus.
Speaker A:He was.
Speaker A:And so ultimately, the role of the mentor is particularly central during this phase of the journey of being discipled or mentored by someone.
Speaker A:Now, there are some pitfalls.
Speaker A:There are some places where we can get stuck.
Speaker A:The first one, which is very easy to do, is finding that it is very seductive at this stage to believe that what is right for us is right for everyone else.
Speaker A:And so we fall into a legalism that we run our lives by the rules that we've created.
Speaker A:Not necessarily.
Speaker A:Some of them are certainly inferred from Scripture.
Speaker A:I'm not saying they aren't, but.
Speaker A:But at the same time, it's built around this structure, because structure allows us to feel safe.
Speaker A:It allows us to be certain about where we stand with God.
Speaker A:And when we keep that structure, then God is happy.
Speaker A:And so we can easily fall into legalism at this phase of the journey.
Speaker A:The second thing we can get stuck on is being rigid in righteousness.
Speaker A:And another word for this, which we throw around a lot, is pride.
Speaker A:And, you know, I just had this conversation about we love to throw that word around.
Speaker A:And I'm not throwing the word under the bus here, because pride, for a lot of reasons, it is true.
Speaker A:It is a sin because it's missing the mark.
Speaker A:It's about me.
Speaker A:But I think you have to ask the question, why are we so tempted by pride?
Speaker A:And I think no I don't think I know that.
Speaker A:Pride is driven along by control and control is driven along by fear.
Speaker A:And what are we afraid of?
Speaker A:And we're afraid of losing our standing with God, in a sense.
Speaker A:And remember I said rigid in righteousness.
Speaker A:And righteousness doesn't mean perfection.
Speaker A:There are multiple ways of understanding the word righteousness.
Speaker A:And one of those ways of that I think is very instructive is that righteousness is being rightly related.
Speaker A:So when God refers to Job as a righteous man, it doesn't mean he's perfect.
Speaker A:It just means that he is rightly related to God.
Speaker A:And that's what God was crowing about.
Speaker A:We would say that was what God was proud of.
Speaker A:He said to Satan, the enemy, hey, look, look at this guy.
Speaker A:I mean, he lives life righteously in right relationship with me.
Speaker A:And we can get so rigid about that, that the lack of acceptance that we see in ourselves that we have to cover with this pride or this rigidity of righteousness, it makes it impossible for us then to move on, on this journey because we keep compari to other people.
Speaker A:That's what it's all about.
Speaker A:And pride is simply trying to create an image that intimidates people into respecting the image more than looking to know the person.
Speaker A:And that is very much a part of that.
Speaker A:It really is impossible for people in this place to see it.
Speaker A:They can't see it.
Speaker A:And the worst part about it is they are insulated from it, from any feedback that somebody would say that would point out the arrogance and the pridefulness.
Speaker A:And nobody ever presses in with the question, so what are you trying to hide?
Speaker A:I mean, what are you so afraid of?
Speaker A:And that's a key because that is one of the basic motivators of a lot of our behavior that gets us into a lot of trouble, actually.
Speaker A:And the other thing that sometimes we get stuck with is.
Speaker A:Is what I call a tribal mentality, us versus them.
Speaker A:The person creates this identity in the group that they're a part of, whether that's a church or a small group or a group of people that flock around a particular pastor or whatever that might be.
Speaker A:And anyone who is in the group is good and anyone that's outside of the group is bad.
Speaker A:And ultimately suspicion can fester and grow in such a way until it gets so out of proportion that then we create the chasm between us.
Speaker A:And I think in a lot of cases, one good example of that is some evangelicals.
Speaker A:And remember, I'm saying some, I'm not saying all, but some evangelicals, their view of Catholicism or somebody who is a Catholic, and there's this nary the twain will meet.
Speaker A:There's not much dialogue because there's such a dramatic difference between the theology of each person.
Speaker A:But before too long we're fighting over the theology and not over the connection that we have with somebody else and what binds us together in terms of our faith in Christ.
Speaker A:And that's what's missing.
Speaker A:Oftentimes, particularly at this stage, it gets to be pretty comfortable when it comes right down to it.
Speaker A:And there are two different groups I want to highlight for you in this kind of section of talking about the us versus them.
Speaker A:And there are people that are on the spiritual journey and they spend a great deal of time at this stage because the problem is they keep searching, switching from one group to another to find something that matches with what their way of thinking is.
Speaker A:Which by implication says, my way of thinking is always right.
Speaker A:I just need to find people that think like me.
Speaker A:We certainly do this in the political realm.
Speaker A:And so the interesting thing about Switchers, and that's that group I was talking about, the interesting thing about Switchers is they're not moving on in their journey.
Speaker A:They're just moving around.
Speaker A:And so what looks like spiritual activity is actually just moving from one group of people to another and they're just switching.
Speaker A:And this is a big temptation, particularly during this phase of the journey, is that we seek to be more comfortable and comfort comes in the form of somebody talking, thinking, feeling like we do.
Speaker A:And that's one group of people that are part of this.
Speaker A:The second group is the searchers.
Speaker A:And the searchers are yearning for a deeper meaning in life and even a spiritual dimension in life, but they end up not looking for it in the church.
Speaker A:Now, they may have a lot of church hurt because of that, not because of that, but they have a church hurt.
Speaker A:And that's what drives them away from the church.
Speaker A:And I think my observation has been, is that's a lot of gen zers out there.
Speaker A:They have seen the divides within the church and said, yeah, thanks, but no thanks, I think I'll find it somewhere else.
Speaker A:And so they will often find it in spiritual but non religious kinds of groups that offer answers that seem more real, that seem more intellectually feasible and less painful and not as rigorous when it really comes right down to it.
Speaker A:And the challenge is it takes an effort to evaluate the groups that we are part of.
Speaker A:And ultimately we tend to gravitate to groups that think like us.
Speaker A:So searchers are avoiding memories of the, perhaps the hurt that they experienced at the hands of toxic Christians thinking that that's the church.
Speaker A:And the memories of what they see as simplistic solutions or rigidity or the hypocrisy of religious experiences.
Speaker A:Forget about the fact that we all engage in some level of hypocrisy anyway.
Speaker A:I mean, that really is part of it.
Speaker A:So switchers keep switching around trying to find the right group of people to be with.
Speaker A:And searchers are looking, as the old country song used to say, looking for love in all the wrong places.
Speaker A:And they'll find something, but it won't be the kind of thing that they're actually looking for.
Speaker A:And you know, it looks like they are on an honest quest and a real journey, but they're wearing a disguise without even knowing it, because we can't be admit even to ourselves what we really want.
Speaker A:And our spiritual experiences that we do seem to fill the bill.
Speaker A:And they will do that for a long time.
Speaker A:But oftentimes, somewhere along the way, some crisis hits and that comfort level of searching for the spiritual dimension runs into reality and there's not enough there.
Speaker A:And so oftentimes this search kind of takes us way, way out on the spiritual edges and we finally discover that it's futile, we're not finding there the thing that we were looking for.
Speaker A:And that's oftentimes what encourages people to come back to a biblical faith, not a evangelical or Catholic or whatever faith.
Speaker A:So some of the keys to moving along here include identifying spiritual gifts.
Speaker A:Again, these are fraught with challenges because if I'm going to try to find out that I have something to contribute to the body of Christ that I'm in, how do I determine what's relevant and what isn't and what's useful and what's a contribution?
Speaker A:And our temptation then is to start to compare again.
Speaker A:And the minute that takes us into that, we will always lose for one and for another.
Speaker A:It really won't help us to own fully who we are and what the experiences that God has brought us through has done to build these particular spiritual gifts we might have.
Speaker A:So a lot of times people will become a contributor too soon.
Speaker A:They need to continue to be taught instead of trying to lead or to contribute in some way.
Speaker A:Now, clearly there are overlaps of that, that I can continue to be teaching and contribute and contribute to the body of Christ that I'm connected to in some way.
Speaker A:But oftentimes we think that contribution is a substitution for spiritual growth because I'm teaching 8 year olds, I'm teaching all the Concepts that are in Scripture that helps me grow.
Speaker A:Well, yes and no.
Speaker A:Yes and no.
Speaker A:We miss out on cultivating a depth of experience with God rather than expanding our knowledge about God.
Speaker A:And that's very much a part of that.
Speaker A:So there's a lot about stage two, that or phase two that is very comfortable.
Speaker A:And it takes a fair number of things to kick us out of there, to keep us moving.
Speaker A:And some of that is a mentor can bring that to our attention and can point out the things that we really need to pay attention to.
Speaker A:And we follow them as they follow Christ.
Speaker A:And that's the best possibility.
Speaker A:So that's it for today.
Speaker A:That gets us through phase two.
Speaker A:We will move on to phase three next time and we'll do a short review before we get into each one.
Speaker A:But phase two really is the emphasis here is knowing about God.
Speaker A:But we need to move from knowing about God to move knowing God himself.
Speaker A:And that I think, is very much a part of, kind of the subtext of this part of the journey.
Speaker A:This phase in the journey that we're going through.
Speaker A:We had a variety of things that were challenges along the way and tasks to do.
Speaker A:And so we find a comfortable group to grow in and learn.
Speaker A:And that is exactly what we need during that time.
Speaker A:It's ironic to me that whenever the Jews made the trek up to Jerusalem for the Passover, they would travel in groups.
Speaker A:And you can bet that there were lots of teaching along the way that happened.
Speaker A:And that's the same thing for us, I think, in our journey toward deepening our relationship with Jesus and beginning to know God, specifically knowing him, not having knowledge about him.
Speaker A:So like I said, that's it for today.
Speaker A:SGI-net.org that is the home to find out everything about us and what's going on.
Speaker A:If you have questions about any of this, feel free to email or DM me there on Instagram or.
Speaker A:Or leave a comment on the website.
Speaker A:You can subscribe on the website the minute you hit invites you to become part of the community.
Speaker A:It's not the kind of thing that we're going to spam you.
Speaker A:You will get a newsletter every month or so of upcoming events and things that are happening and the schedule on the podcast, if you want to tune in at a particular time, you certainly can do that as well.
Speaker A:And a couple different things of writings that I've done on a variety of topics that come in a different form rather than just through the podcast or anything else.
Speaker A:So subscribe on the website.
Speaker A:Become part of our online.
Speaker A:If you're interested, we have digital devotionals online called Setting New Boundaries.
Speaker A:You can sign up for that and get a devotional once a week to talk about healthy relationships and how to maintain them.
Speaker A:Of course you can follow us on on our social media outlets.
Speaker A:Instagram is @SGI International.
Speaker A:On Facebook it's ray.mitch and LinkedIn it's Dr.
Speaker A:Mitch.
Speaker A:And if you're new, my last name is spelled M I T S C H.
Speaker A:The podcast itself is available on all the outlets that you listen to your podcast, so Spotify, itunes, Google Play, or whatever they call it.
Speaker A:And last but not least, if you're interested in partnering with us, we would be ever so grateful to build and continue to build our scholarship fund not only for silent retreats.
Speaker A:I'm going to take a drink of water here real quick.
Speaker A:Not only for spiritual retreats, but also for the variety of activities that we want to put together.
Speaker A:I would love to see us have groups in person.
Speaker A:And of course that takes, that takes funds to be able to afford renting a place and doing that.
Speaker A:And we will always be looking for opportunities to, to have spaces donated to us to be able to meet.
Speaker A:But until that time, we're trying to build up our resources to be able to focus in on the silent retreats because we've got three coming up potentially next month and the month after April and May.
Speaker A:And so you can please contribute.
Speaker A:All your gifts are tax deductible, so you'll get a receipt by email that allows you to use it in submitting your taxes, which is speedily coming up on us.
Speaker A:There are merchandise on the website.
Speaker A:You can find them in SGI store.
Speaker A:You can find a link to Buy my new book, the the Seasons of Our Grief.
Speaker A:Buy my old book, Grieving the Loss of someone you Love, as well as some window stickers.
Speaker A:If you want to promote SGI and the Outpost podcast, they have a Latin phrase on them called essay quam videri, which means to be rather than seem.
Speaker A:And I think that is it.
Speaker A:If you'd prefer to send us a physical check, you're welcome to do so.
Speaker A:You can just Send it to SGI, P.O.
Speaker A: , Eastlake, CO: Speaker A:Thanks so much for joining me.
Speaker A:I hope you've had a good weekend.
Speaker A:If you're on Thursday, then you're anticipating a weekend.
Speaker A:But I appreciate you taking the time out to listen and to consider and maybe take a look at where you are in your own spiritual journey.
Speaker A:If you have questions, please shoot them to me on the comments at the bottom of the front page on the website@sgi-net.org org I will.
Speaker A:I'll see you next week.
Speaker A:I'll be here waiting for you.
Speaker A:And until then, love you.
Speaker A:Later.
Speaker A:Bye.
