Episode 43

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Published on:

7th Oct 2024

Episode 43: Forgiveness: The Hot Button Issue You Can't Ignore

Forgiveness is a complex and often contentious theme that resonates deeply within relationships, particularly when hurt and betrayal are involved. Dr. Mitsch delves into the multifaceted nature of forgiveness, challenging the simplistic notion of 'forgive and forget'. He argues that true forgiveness involves acknowledging the hurt and the complexities surrounding it rather than dismissing it. Drawing on psychological insights, Mitsch asserts that forgetting past grievances can be detrimental, as it ignores the lessons learned from painful experiences. He emphasizes that forgiveness is not a mere transaction but a profound process that requires both emotional and spiritual engagement. The discussion further explores the reasons behind our reluctance to forgive, including our desire for justice and control over the actions of those who have hurt us. Ultimately, the episode offers a compassionate framework for understanding forgiveness as a journey toward inner freedom, urging listeners to recognize the liberation that comes from releasing grudges and embracing grace.

Takeaways:

  • Forgiveness is not simply about forgetting; it's about releasing the burden of anger.
  • True forgiveness requires us to trust God to handle our grievances appropriately.
  • Forgiveness is a process that involves recognizing our hurt and healing over time.
  • We often hold onto grudges thinking it empowers us, but it actually enslaves us.
  • Letting go of our end of the rope is essential for true forgiveness to occur.
  • Forgiveness allows us to potentially transform our relationships and invite healing into our lives.

Transcript
Doctor Ray Mitch:

Imagine for a moment that you are a road weary traveler.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

You're tired, you're hungry, and wondering if there will ever be a safe place to rest.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

You've been told there's an outpost ahead that provides safety information for the road ahead and people who understand what the journey is like.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

You keep scanning the horizon, hoping against hope that it will be there.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Then, as you come over a rise in the terrain, you suddenly catch a glimpse of it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

There it stands, beckoning you to come and find the rest you need.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

You're moments away from the outpost.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Welcome, everybody, to another edition of the Outpost.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I am Doctor Ray Mitch, your host.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Thanks so much for taking some time out of your busy schedule to listen in.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Perhaps we will hit on some key issues that are of interest to you.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

This particular one, I think the topic for tonight is one that is probably would fall under a hot button issue.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I think, if I were real honest, and based on most of the reactions I have gotten when I've talked about this, it is a common issue within relationships, not only in what I'm referring to as the outpost, but also just in relationships in general.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So before I get into that, let me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Let me describe a little bit if you're listening for the very first time.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Welcome.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I'm so glad that you've.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That you are checking us out.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

What is the outpost?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Well, the outpost is a digital place where we're trying to build bridges back to faith or strengthen bridges of faith that are built on authenticity, on grace and truth, and on knowing and being known.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so, depending on what you're bringing with you into listening to this podcast, you bring you with you.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so all of those issues, whether it's about the topics I might be talking about, or hopefully, lord willing, the people I might interview, it's going to be the filter through which you listen to everything I have to say.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's just there.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It's not really a matter of it's good or bad or anything.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It just is there.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We listen with filters, whether we know it or not.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

There's always some kind of bias, maybe even some measure of woundedness that we bring to listening to some of the topics that I am trying to talk about in some practical sort of way, hopefully, particularly the one that I want to touch on tonight.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So what we're trying to do is to create a space where the doubters, the wounded, the confused, the beat up and beat down, the bent and bruised who feel like their lives are a disappointment to God, can feel accepted enough to be known and know others and this, this can be done in a variety of ways, which we have found out even since the strike of the pandemic and we were trying to relate through a screen.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It would be preferable if we do this in person to person, eye to eye, in the presence of others, to be able to see and hear their reactions to us.

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But we have to have the kind of place where we feel safe enough and accepted enough to do that.

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We seek to be ultimately the kind of place where people can meet and bump into the biblical Jesus as he is, not as they have been told he is, or that they've heard he is, or the caricature of what they believe he is.

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And that's one of the biases that we may have to deal with, is what I believe to be true.

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And maybe it isn't.

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Maybe.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I think ultimately we construct our way of understanding who Jesus is by the people who identify themselves with Jesus.

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And that's unfortunate because they are a very pallid reflection of who he is and the nature of who he is.

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And so unfortunately, the number of people you bump into who are very confident in what they think Jesus is are the very first ones you should probably ignore.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the ones that are still trying to figure it out, those are the ones that you probably should pay attention to.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So let me get into this.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Pull up a chair.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Get comfortable, relax.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Maybe you're on a walk or run.

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And I want to talk about the things that really matter wherever, where we live, where we.

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How we think and how we feel about living life with others and even in our spiritual life.

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So.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And this is the topic, okay?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And all I can say is probably buckle up because the topic is, this is what.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

What about forgiveness?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Like, forgive and forget?

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And the reality is there is no such thing.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It does not exist in the Bible.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Quite honestly, this is one of these phrases that tends to really get me grinding my teeth, partly because we, we can't forget.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Neither should we forget now.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Forgive, yes, absolutely.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

But forgive, no, I.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That quite honestly, from a, from a psychological point of view, forgetting is dangerous.

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And if you ever meet somebody that forgets stuff, we would look at that as problematic.

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Right?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I mean, the first indications of dementia, sometimes, not always, maybe it's just old age, I should know, is forgetfulness.

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And that can be because we have a lot on our minds and we're distracted and we're not paying attention.

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It can be a lot of different things.

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But usually forgetfulness is usually an indication to us that something's up.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so when we come up with these phrases, and there's another one I want to touch on.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's a hot button for me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I don't know about any of you, but it is for me, and I'll let you in on that in a second.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

But forgive and forget is one of these things that really can't be done.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And when it is implied or imposed, we're doomed because we can't.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And neither should we.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Because in a lot of cases, the people that we are seeking to forgive continue to behave in the way that prompted the woundedness in the first place and my need to forgive them.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so I should be remember, I should remember of the nature of what they do.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And maybe it would take you back then to the last episode when I was talking about setting boundaries and having healthy boundaries in relationships, because that's a very important part, ultimately, of the process to forgiveness.

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Now, there is only one person, one being in the universe that can forget.

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And that's what I want to point out to you.

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And there was a prophet in the Old Testament, and he was, he was often feeling like he really didn't want to be a prophet because the people he had to talk to were really tough.

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And he says this, he says, and he's talking for God.

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And he says, for this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, after they have lost their land and been displaced and everything else, and maybe even the end of time, maybe to the point of where we are today, because God says, I will put my law within them.

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I will write it on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

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And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, know the Lord, for they all will know me from the least to the greatest.

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And it says, for I will forgive their iniquity, their sin, and I will forget their sin.

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I will remember their sin no more.

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There is only one being in the universe that can do that, and that's the one that knows everything.

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But we're always learning, and forgetting is not a good thing.

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I have had many instances where I've shown students videos of people that have forgotten have had an impact on their ability to remember.

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And everything about us hinges on our ability to remember things, including our name, including who we are, including seeing ourselves in the mirror and saying, that's me.

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All of that is dependent on remembering.

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And so to say, forgive and forget is a cheap way to say, I'll make believe that what you did didn't matter is really what it ends up being.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So let me give you some reason.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Let me start with why.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Why should I bother forgiving?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And ultimately, in the ultimate sense, the first reason for forgiving is because we've been forgiven and God has made it possible for us to live forgiven.

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And so, in a lot of ways, God is the ultimate creditor, and we owe him everything.

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And so when somebody comes to us or hurts us or whatever, for us to hang on to our grievances against them is to some degree, saying, well, God, you can forgive me, but I don't have to forgive anybody else.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And in a lot of instances, we can look at some of the stories Jesus told about a servant in particular that said he went into his master, he owed him so much money.

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Let me give you an example and a proportion here.

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That servant goes into.

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The master says, please forgive my debt.

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Now, that word is not only a spiritual or religious word, it is a financial term.

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You go in to your local banker and say, how do I get rid of my mortgage?

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And they will say, then what you're asking me to do is to forgive your mortgage.

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And essentially, the servant goes into the ruler or the landowner or whoever he is, and he owes him so much money that if you were to load one person down with a five pound bag of silver and line them all up about a yard apart, the line would stretch for 5 miles.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's how much silver that servant, that person owed his master.

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That's how much.

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And.

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And the landowner, or whoever he is, says, okay, I'll forgive your debt.

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And then the servant goes out, finds a friend of his that owes him a 20.

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$20 because of maybe they.

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They had a card game or whatever, started choking him.

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And the guy says, I'll get you your money, repeating what that other person said to the person that he owed money to, I'll get you your money.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And his friend says that, and he throws them in jail because he owes him money.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the ruler or the landowner, whoever it is, gets word of this mandev because this man had been forgiven all of that debt, probably the equivalent of about $5 million.

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And he's choking his friend for $20.

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And it grieved him.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It grieved him.

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And that's the same proportionality that we have with God.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He says, I will forgive your debt.

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As a matter of fact, I'll pay the cost, and I'll talk about that in a second.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So why forgive?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The first and foremost one is essentially, God has given us a model for releasing people from our demand that they change and let God be the one to deal with them.

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Okay?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So the first one's God.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Why forgive?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Because God has forgiven me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The second one is me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the reason I put me in there is because one of the things that most of us do not recognize is that when I hang on to a grudge or something against another person because they hurt me or whatever it is, and I hang on to it so tightly because they owe me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

They owe me something.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

They owe me an apology.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

They owe me to restore what they have taken from me, whether that's in a relationship or whether that's in the relationship, they took something from me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so essentially what I do is say, okay, you owe me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And I'm going to hang on to this until you finally figure out what you owe me and you give it back to me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And ultimately, the reason for forgiving is because the person who is.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Is freed is me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now let me give you an example of this.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Some of you may recognize the name Corey Ten Boom.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Corey ten boom was a Jewish person during World War Two.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

She and her sister were harbored by a family, and eventually they were found and sent off to a concentration camp.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Corrie ten boom.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And I believe her sister's name was Elizabeth, if I'm remembering that right.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Anyway, they are there, and her sister dies in the concentration camp.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Corey survives it and comes out the other side and goes on a.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And she writes the book the hiding place, which is what she is probably most known for.

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And she went on this speaking tour, and she would speak about, guess what?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Forgiveness.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so she's speaking one evening, she does her talk, and it finishes up.

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And then, as is often the case, people line up to want to greet the speaker.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And as Corey is meeting each person and talking to them and answering questions and just receiving whatever greeting they wanted to give her, she caught something out of the corner of her eye.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And there was a guy at the end of the line.

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And every time a new person would come to the line, he would have them go in front of him.

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And sooner or later, the line began to diminish.

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And eventually all that was left was Corey in this man.

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And he comes up and he greets her, shakes her hand and says, corey, I want you to know that I was an SS officer at the concentration camp where your sister died.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And as you can imagine, Corey gasped.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And they went on to have a longer conversation where he communicates to her that he has accepted Jesus as part of his life and has turned away from the things that he had done.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And he wanted to come to her and let her know that he had accepted Christ.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And he had also changed his ways and started doing things very differently and seeing things differently.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And he was riddled with regret over what had happened at the concentration camp.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And never had he really met somebody that he had impacted directly in some ways.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And there they were, standing there, and they go on to converse and trade stories and talk about their relationship with Christ and all these things.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And when it all came down to the end, they prayed together.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Corey gave him a hug, and she walked out.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And supposedly, and I don't know if this is true, but it was stated that her assistant, who was with her, heard Corey say as they were walking out of that church tonight, somebody was set free.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that person was me because I had the opportunity to forgive.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so forgiveness is not only for God and what he has done for us, but it also is for me, and it sets me free.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Just remember one thing.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The lack of forgiveness in us is a little bit like taking rat poison and waiting for the rat to die.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so that's oftentimes what we do.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It is poisonous for us to hang on to our unwillingness to forgive.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now, listen, I am not casting stones here because in so many ways, we hang on to an edge because we think we need that in order to finally be free, when, in fact, it's forgiveness that gives me, is the key to my freedom, not the other person coming and giving to me what I want or what I think I need for me to finally be free.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Because ultimately, it's built entirely on someone who may not know or who may not even care what I want or what I think I deserve.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so, needless to say, forgiveness is not only for God, it's for me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And then the third one is.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The third reason for forgiving is for the other person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Ultimately, my shorthand version of understanding forgiveness is that I.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That forgiveness is my willingness to release another person from my demand that they change, because that's essentially what we're doing.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

When we withhold forgiveness from somebody, we're turning it into a contract, and we're saying, I will forgive only if you make the changes that I think you should make.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so when I learn or come to a place where I can release the person from my demand that they change, that they be different, that they give me what I want, it actually becomes a silent invitation to the other person because my demeanor with them and my way of interacting with them changes.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And in a lot of cases, we can actually surprise and supplant a cold heart by our kindness and willingness to treat them with respect, even though at one point in time we said they didn't deserve it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so why do we forgive?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We forgive because God has forgiven us.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We forgive because it frees me, and we forgive because it allows the other person to be free to change if they so choose, and they don't have to choose, but I don't have to be chained to them.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the last one, the last reason here is the community of believers, the community of people around me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

My relationships are affected by my lack of forgiveness of other people.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And we may not think so, but it does, because I'm drinking the poison, waiting and nursing my anger and nursing my demands and everything else against this other person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And it's one more sip of the poison that ends up enslaving me to them when that's the last thing I really wanted or I needed, really.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so it affects my relationships with the people around me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's kind of what I mean by the community of believers.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now, let me do two things here to kind of lay this all out, because you can do a flyover of what forgiveness looks like, and then we can land and look at the details, and that's kind of what I want to do.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So one way to think about forgiveness is in phases, if you will, and not steps.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

They're phases because they take time.

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And oftentimes we have to cycle through the phase.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the first phase, if you will, is.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Is when it actually happens.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And see, the offense of another person produces hurt in me, in the offended person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And simultaneously, the guilt is laid upon the person who's hurt me, on his conscience, his or her conscience, but the offended person also lays the guilt on the person who has hurt me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So I'm laying guilt on them as well.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Not only does perhaps don't know, we don't know what's going on inside of them, but on their conscience as well, that they've hurt me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's really the first phase, if you will, of forgiveness.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The second one is that I am emotionally and spiritually bound to the person who has hurt me by my lack of forgiveness.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So I try to hold them hostage with my forgiveness, and that grudge sustains the hurt that I feel.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And this bondage can really never be broken, no matter how much distance is put between them or anything else.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The only thing that will.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That will free me from that grudge is forgiveness.

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And this is, I can tell you, from being a counselor for as long as I have.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

This is the hot button issue in so much of the counseling I've done with people over and over and over again because we think the offender should ask to be forgiven.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the honest, the truth is that they may never do it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And then what?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Then I'm permanently chained to the other person and waiting for them to do something.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so ultimately I am.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Forgiveness gives me the capacity to sever the influence and the pain of that grudge with the other person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so in phase three, the offender's guilt can only be removed by me, the person who has been hurt.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And essentially, and we'll get to this and I'll put it in a different context for you, but I take the hurt on myself, whether it is requested or not, and I give up the right to blame the other person for what he or she is.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And this is the act of forgiveness.

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It is releasing them.

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Now, this is not a once and done.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It is never a once and done.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It is something we have to do on an ongoing basis for this to be real in our lives.

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If I think it's once and done, I will be disappointed and I will be forever guilty again of not forgiving somebody.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so the last phase, if you will, is the last kind of process.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's the process of me giving what is the person has done to me, the hurt, the grudge, everything I turn over to, to the person who actually can impact them directly, and that's God.

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Now, we may not trust God, and that's where this comes in.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

This.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

This issue comes into play is that we don't quite honestly, we don't forgive because we don't trust God to do it the way we think he should.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so we want to be able to exact the revenge on the person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We want to be the ones to determine that.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And therefore, then we are inadvertently chained still to that person because we're not willing to let God do what he does best.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's changed the human heart in a way that we can't see or we can't understand.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And if I don't trust God, then I'm not going to do that.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And I will have a life littered with unforgiveness.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That is, I am wrapped around by all the chains that have chained me to all the people that have hurt me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so when I release that other person and I give the offense and the grudge over to God, he can do what he will do with them, not me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's way above my pay grade.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I don't know about any of you guys, but it is way above my pay grade.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

To know what fits the person and the consequences that they suffer.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And they may, I may not ever know it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's just it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I hang on to my unforgiveness because I want to be able to see that they are suffering, that they are experiencing what I believe they deserve.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

But now I have placed myself in the position of God knowing all things.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Because our sense of justice, don't forget this.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

As our sense of justice is violated by grace.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It is always violated by grace.

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And that's why we don't like it, quite honestly, because we lose some semblance of control over the outcome, because we give the outcome ultimately to God, who really knows what he's doing.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now, again, like I said, if I don't trust God, I am not going to do this.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's the choice I could make.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And I can live chained to the other person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I've seen it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I have seen it in the counseling office.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Over and over and over again, people have chained themselves to this other person, nursing this anger and this grudge and this offense so long, and they're the only ones that are getting poisoned.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

H.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Norman Wright wrote a book, and it was entitled Always Daddy's Girl.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And he puts it this way.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He says, forgiveness involves letting go.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Remember playing tug of war as a child?

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As long as the parties on each end of the rope are tugging, you have a quote unquote war.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

But when someone lets go, the war is over.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

When you forgive, you're letting go of your end of the rope.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

No matter how.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Excuse me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

No matter how hard the other person may tug on the other end, if you've released your end, the war is over for you.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's one way.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's an overview of the forgiveness.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now, let me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Let me deal with one thing before I go any further.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Excuse me?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Let me deal with one thing.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And it is a massive lie that is floating around in a lot of christians heads.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And I know because I've heard it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I've heard it so many times.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the lie is this, I need to forgive myself.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So when we blow it and do something, we know, and I've had people actually say, I know God is forgiving me, but I just need to forgive myself.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And we say it over and over again as if we're the final arbiter of myself.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Forget about the fact that the judge, jury and executioner has already decided in my head.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So let me, let me just give you an example here, okay?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Let's say that tomorrow morning I'm backing out of my driveway and I crush my neighbor's mailbox.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I mean, I crush it beyond recognition, beyond use at all.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now the question is, what can happen?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Either he or she will not forgive me and I buy him or her a new mailbox.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Or they can quote unquote, forgive me, say it's okay, but they will have to buy the new mailbox.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Either way, someone has to buy the new mailbox.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now understand this.

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Forgiveness always involves a cost.

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And forgiveness is the transfer of that cost from one to another.

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But forgiveness always has a cost.

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And so when we decide to go our own way and do it our own way, different than what God has said is best, we're going to pay a cost for doing it our own way.

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We are.

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It's called consequences.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We live in a world of consequences now.

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We want to make it so there aren't any.

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But then I don't have.

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I can't really learn anything when it comes right down to it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So what do I do with the cost of my misbehavior, my.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

My sinfulness, my hurting other people, my making the kind of mistakes that are really very driven by me?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Someone has to pay the cost, and I will in relationships, because the person will move away or will create distance or create the boundaries necessary, because I am not reliable and I have been hurtful, and they're not willing to remain in relationship.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's a cost.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

But doing it my own way, particularly different than what God has said, is best, I continue to pay that cost.

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And the wonder of grace is that God says, listen, I know your ledger sheet is dripping in red.

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There is no way you can pay it all.

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I'll pay it for you.

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And that's exactly what Jesus dying on the cross was.

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It was the cost.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Forgiveness always involves transferring the cost.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Okay, so now if what we're talking about is forgiving myself, what that actually means, given the understanding that forgiveness is transferring the cost, then I am transferring the cost from myself to myself, and I'm still carrying the cost.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And there's no way to do this.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

This is logically impossible.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

As a matter of fact, it manages to put me in the position of God again, to say that I have to do something more than what Jesus did at the cross in order for me to feel, quote unquote, feel forgiven.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So when you hear somebody say, I can't forgive myself, don't say it to them, but you can think it in your head, you've got my permission if you need it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

You can't.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It's logically impossible.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The beauty of the cross is you don't have to forgive yourself.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And quite honestly, our enemy wants us to believe there's something more that we need to do, more than what Jesus did for us.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So you can choose how you see fit.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And Jesus is not the person in a church that told you something wrong.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He isn't.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so I don't need to do anything more.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

What it means, grace means it is impossible to forgive myself.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And then what that also means is that I have to grapple with the humility to accept the grace is being offered me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's what forgiveness is.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Henry now was very blunt when he said that forgiveness is grace in action, in relationships, and that forgiveness is done amongst people who love poorly.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so what I want to do, and that's, I I'm going to put a period on that.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And then now pivot, because I think that that lie still lurks in the background of so many people, and I have heard, heard it so many times, and unfortunately, I can't contain myself.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And whenever somebody says, I guess I just need to forgive myself, I end up blurting out unreservedly and maybe unempathically when I say, you can't.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

You've already decided your fate.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So how in the world are you going to release yourself from the fate that you've already decided?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

You have.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Okay, enough.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Enough.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So what I want you to understand is that there are two different kinds of forgiveness.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

There's superficial and there's genuine superficial.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The way that I think about it is the way to kind of describe it is it goes like this.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It says, oh, I'm sorry.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's okay.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the reality is, is that superficial forgiveness is little more than a social convention.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Ultimately, it is designed to minimize the harm to the other person who has hurt us.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so for the offender, it's an attempt to minimize the impact, impact on the offended.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Oh, I'm sorry.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I'm sorry.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And I have seen so many times people say, oh, that's okay.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And it's like, no, it's not okay.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It is not okay.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And just saying you're sorry is for your own guilt.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It isn't for the person that you've actually hurt.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so for the offended, for the person who's been hurt, it removes the burden of guilt from the offender or the tension they feel.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Somewhere, somehow, we have gotten the notion that we're responsible for the discomfort somebody feels because they have hurt us.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We're responsible for it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So now we're blaming the victim here, and that's a big, big part of it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So superficial.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Forgiveness is oftentimes carried into, oh, I'm sorry.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the other person says, that's okay.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The thing to keep in mind about genuine forgiveness is it is a decision and it is a process.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Most of the time, we think that if I decide to forgive, then forgiveness will occur, and it won't.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We have to figure out some way of doing it differently, of going through the process of recovery.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Interestingly enough, and I'll just say this as kind of a sidelight, there is a lot of parallels between forgiveness and grief and processing our grief.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

In a lot of ways, the grief in a relationship, in the rupture of a relationship, is very connected because suddenly the person isn't what I thought they were, didn't do what I would expect them to do.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And now I have to adjust.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I have to.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I have lost the image of what I had of the person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so it's a decision and a process.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

What's the process?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the first and foremost of that process is to recognize how I've actually been hurt.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

How in the world can I actually seek to find healing for the injury that has occurred if I don't pay attention to what has actually happened, and I don't recognize the nature of the injury that has occurred, how it's impacted me, and sometimes it's years later, and then I'm in the future and I can look back at the impact that the other person has had on me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And I may not have done the forgiveness, and now I'm faced with that, and I've got to start with, how have I actually been hurt?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And then the second thing I have to do is I have to identify the feelings that come with it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Interesting thing about our feelings is they tend to take us back to the things that we are covering over, and they often reveal the very things that we have to find a way to let go of through the process of forgiveness.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I can't let go of something.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I have not identified what it actually is.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And our feelings oftentimes point to that.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Our thoughts are usually the process of defending us against the things that our feelings are pointing to.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And then the third thing I have to do is find someone mature enough and trustworthy enough to be able to talk about and express these feelings that I have, the feelings of grief and betrayal and abandonment and all the things and hurt that goes with it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I have to find somebody mature enough and trustworthy enough to share that with.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

What that means is they will not try to fix you.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

They will not try to slap a platitude or a Bible verse on you, and they will enter in with you and help you through the process as you go.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now, somebody out there may say, well, wait a minute.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

A scripture verse is great.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It helps people anchor themselves about forgiveness.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Well, maybe.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

But an ill timed truth is experienced as a white hot dagger.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

An ill time truth is experienced like a weapon.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So I have to figure out the truth that I offer them may not be God's truth.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It may be the truth of my presence to be with them in the midst of all that they're feeling.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And then the fourth thing is, I got to set boundaries to protect myself from the harm the person has done.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Perhaps I'm still around this person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Then I need to go back, listen to the last episode 42 about how to set boundaries to protect myself from the harm that's going on from the person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now look at this.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The first four steps, if you will, of this process or characteristics of recognizing the injury, identifying the feelings I have, expressing them as somebody trustworthy, and setting boundaries.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I have said nothing about the debt because I can't, forget cancel a debt.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I have not identified what the debt is.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So this process that I've just described is necessary before we ever get to finally canceling the debt.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that is.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That is not easy.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now understand something.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Not everything that we experience has to go through this lengthy.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

This doesn't have to be a lengthy process, but somebody who says something insensitively, it could fit into this, or it could be, you know, they are displaying some.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Some unguarded words, and we give them the feedback on it and it's done.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

But in a lot of cases, we don't give people feedback, and then we harbor the anger and frustration and offense over something they've said and never said anything to them.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And they are completely in the dark, and I am in the.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

In the shadows nursing my wounds and demanding restitution.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So canceling the debt is an ongoing process.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And only then, after I have started through that process of canceling the debt, do I consider or pray or even seek reconciliation.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now understand something.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Reconciliation is not the same as forgiveness.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Forgiveness is a one way street.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It is from me to the person who has offended me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It is not a two way street.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Reconciliation is a bilateral meeting of the minds and the hearts of the people that we're talking about here, and it cannot be done if the other person doesn't believe they've done anything wrong.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And what that means then is that a lot of times, reconciliation won't happen.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now, there's one other thing I want to mention.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's on the flip side of forgiveness.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's the topic of confession and repentance.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And confession literally means to say the same Thing as.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The question is to say the same thing as what?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And it's to say the same thing as what I have done to the other person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's what confession is to say the same thing as.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So when I confess, I say what I've actually done to the other person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so confession is the starting point of the process of repentance.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Repentance, on the other hand, is actually captured in scripture, if you're curious, because in Hebrew, there really isn't a word for repentance.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It's called teshuva.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It means to return is the Hebrew word in the New Testament we use.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The Greek is translated into Metanoia.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

In other words, a change of mind.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

When Jesus told the story of the prodigal son, he actually captured both of these things.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

When the young man is sitting, considering having lunch with the pigs in the pig pen, and it says, he changed his mind.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And then he went home.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He experienced metanoia, and then he went home.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He returned.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He returned.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so repentance means to not only return to the place of reconciliation, the place of that I can confess, the place for possible repentance.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I mean, ultimately, repentance is repentance.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It is not a contract.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

If I repent, then I get forgiven.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's not what this is about.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

This is the other one way street that meets in the intersection of reconciliation.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so repentance, just like forgiveness, is a superficial kind where it says, I'm sorry, but.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the person gets self righteous about what they did, and they end up finding fault in the other person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

If you hadn't said it the way you did, then I wouldn't have stuck my foot in my mouth, for example.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And they end up superficial repentance ends up having an attitude like, well, I'm glad that I got that over.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so they're uttering just the right words, and they end up getting very defensive in the face of the consequences they experience around that.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so they compare their sin to other people, what they have done, their behavior to other people, in order to minimize it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And sometimes they end up feeling very confused about what to repent because they're not paying attention to it at all.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so oftentimes, superficial repentance ends up, they're not specific.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So somebody says, I'm sorry.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And you might look at them and say, what are you sorry about?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And they'll say, well, I don't know, but I think I'm supposed to do that now.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so that would be superficial repentance.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And then finally, genuine repentance acknowledges the wrong that has been done, the impact that it actually has, and the communication that they will seek to repair the thing that has happened, the wrongdoing.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

But they admit their wrongdoing without any buts, without any clauses, without any conditional terms that say, yeah, but.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that ultimately is what it looks like.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Now, if you've ever.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I am a fan of the artist Rembrandt.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I have two of them in my office.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

One is the return of the Prodigal.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And Henry Nouwen actually writes a very compelling book about that painting, the return of the Prodigal.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's the name of his book.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I highly recommend it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

But what does it look like when the prodigal changes his mind in the pig pen and returns home?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And what we're told in that story?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's a remarkable story when you really think about it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It really is a very remarkable story, because Jesus is telling that story about, about what forgiveness looks like.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Peter had just asked him, how often do I need to repent?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And Peter thought he was overdoing it when he said, seven times, and Jesus said, no, 70 times seven.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It doesn't mean 490.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

It means infinitely.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so Jesus goes on to tell the story of lost things.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He talks about the widow that has a lost coin and the shepherd that has a lost sheep.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And then he tells the story of the prodigal, and it's the lost son.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And he tells his dad, I wish you were dead.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Give me my inheritance now.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And he goes off.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He spends his inheritance and wine women in song, and he ends up being destitute in a pig pen.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

A jewish kid having to deal with pigs.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

What a humiliating thing.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so he decides to go home.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And on his way home, he's rehearsing his speech to his dad, saying, look, I don't deserve to be your son.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I'll just be a servant, and I'll just gladly live where the servants live.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I don't need to be that person.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And as he's approaching, and think this through, as he's approaching, his dad catches sight of him.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

How does his dad catch sight of him?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Because he's watching the road.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He's watching the road for his son to come home.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And when he sees him, he hikes up his robes, throwing to the wind all of the social conventions, and runs to him and throws his arms around him.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The son says, wait wait, wait.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I've got a speech I gotta tell you.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the father says, no, no, no, nothing like that.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Silences him and says, no, no.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And he puts his.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He says, get the best robe.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And putting.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Put it on my son.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Who owns the best robe in the house?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The father does.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He says, here, put a ring on his finger to signify that he has come home.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He has returned to the identity of my son.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And he put sandals on his feet because he was walking barefoot, and all the accumulated dirt and grime and everything of his trip could be covered with the sandals.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And the father says, kill the fattened calf because we are going to have a party, because my son, who was gone, has now returned.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That is the picture of repentance, of forgiveness and of reconciliation.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so we have the beautiful picture of reconciliation where one has, I would suggest to you the father has already forgiven him.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's what makes it possible for him to run out to his son.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The son has repented because he has returned.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

He's gone home, and he has changed his mind, and he's going to do life differently now.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That is forgiveness.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That is repentance, and that is reconciliation.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so the relationships within the outpost have to be relationships that are marked by forgiveness and repentance and reconciliation.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We can't make reconciliation happen, but we can forgive, and we can repent.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Repent is not a word you hear very much of confession sometimes, but repentance is not a word that you hear very much of, really, even in the christian realm.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We do it in the context of our salvation.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

But what about the rest of our lives and the rest of the impacts on our relationships and so forth?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And so forgiveness and repentance and reconciliation are the earmarks of relationships in the outpost.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's what we seek to facilitate, to encourage, to model in our relationships in the outpost.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's the ultimate price to be paid.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Remember, forgiveness is a transfer of cost.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

A transfer of cost.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And we can accept the grace that is offered us when we have blown it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And we come to God and say, I've blown it, and I know I have.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

This is nothing, what you would want for me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And it's taken me away from you, and that's what I.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's what I've done, and I'm.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I'm owning it for what it is.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And we don't have to say we're not.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We will.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

I won't let that happen ever again.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Don't say that.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Yes, you will.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We will.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We will make mistakes again, we will blow it again.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The issue isn't whether I do it again.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The issue is, am I on the road to continuing to try to grow and to change into the person that God is actually seeking for me to become?

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's why he offers me the forgiveness, because he offers me the freedom to be able to embrace the grace he has given me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's it for tonight.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Sgi dash net.org dot thanks so much for joining me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

That's the digital home for the SGI community.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

If you have questions or anything that you'd like to send me, you can do it on Instagram by dming me, or you can do it on the website.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

At the very bottom, there's a contact form that you can fill out and ask your questions in regards to this topic or any of the other ones I've been talking about.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And you can subscribe.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

If you're new to the website, you'll be asked to join in the community and you can do that.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

You'll get our newest newsletter that's going to be coming out this week, and you'll find out what's going on and perhaps get some food for thought for the week.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that's what is a subscription gets you.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So join on the website, hit it, go to it, sign up.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

We're not going to spam you and we're not going to send you a bunch of extraneous stuff.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And you can do that, obviously with the podcast by subscribing to the podcast as well and keeping up with what's going on here.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

The other feature that's on the website that I'll just mention is the digital devotionals.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And those are all about the kind of, the kind of relationships I'm talking about.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And it's called setting new boundaries.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And you can sign up for $5 a month and you can get one once a week.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Give you plenty to think about in terms of your relationships.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So you can find us on three social media outlets, Instagram, SGI International at Facebook, stained Glass International on Facebook, and LinkedIn at Drmich.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So thanks so much for joining me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

If you're interested in partnering with us, we'd be ever so grateful.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

All the gifts, all the donations are tax deductible.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And that allows us to not only fund the activities of SGI, but also makes our silent retreats reachable for students and other people that would like to go.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And there's a whole bunch of other things that you can see on the website.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So explore it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Look at the store.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Got a few things there, like a window sticker, if you're interested, or the two books that I've written, grieving the loss of someone you love, or the seasons of our grief, which is the newest book that came out.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And you can certainly do any of that there.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

You can donate online using the donate button that has a dropdown for it.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

, Eastlake, Colorado:

Doctor Ray Mitch:

So that is it for tonight.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Thanks so much for joining me.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

And until next week, love you.

Doctor Ray Mitch:

Later, bye.

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About the Podcast

The Outpost Podcast with Dr Ray Mitsch
Exploring the intersection of faith, psychology and spiritual formation
An outpost is meant to be a place of safety out on the margins of where most of the people are. This podcast will be a place just like that - a place of authenticity, safety, and learning. It will include guests talking about key issues of spiritual formation and psychology as well as select topics addressed by the host Dr. Ray Mitsch.

About your host

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Ray Mitsch

In 2005 after experiencing a devastating accident that left him in perpetual pain, Dr. Mitsch embarked on a journey into the heart of God realizing that God didn’t need him to accomplish ministry for Him. Dr. Mitsch was hijacked by the tender, relentless grace of Jesus that cemented his conviction that God wanted a brutally honest, authentic relationship with him. This led him into a long desert experience with God that has refined and transformed his relationships and his relationship with his Abba.

Dr. Mitsch has been in the counseling profession since 1980. In 1993, he started his own counseling practice called Cornerstone Counseling Center, and has been in private practice since that time. He has had extensive experience in men’s ministry, and caring ministries within the local church.

Dr. Mitsch has used his 40 years of experience in working with missionaries from around the world. As a result, he has had the opportunity to work with over 1000 missionary families both on the field as well as those on home assignment. He has been actively involved in field-based crisis intervention, candidate assessment, and post-field debriefing as well as trauma debriefing.

He has authored five books including his best-selling book, “Grieving the Loss of Someone You Love” selling over 400,000 copies worldwide. He was a charter member of the American Association of Christian Counseling, and is a licensed psychologist in Colorado. Ray has been married to Linda for 40 years and blessed to have four daughters: Corrie, Anne, Abigail, and Elizabeth and two grandsons, Greyson, Desmond and Henry. The Mitsches live in the Denver area.