Episode 50: Exploring the Scandal of Grace - A Reflection with Dr. Ray Mitsch
Dr. Ray Mitsch's discourse on grace navigates the intricate terrain of human emotion, spirituality, and the paradoxes that arise within the context of divine acceptance. He underscores the Outpost's role as a sanctuary for those who feel marginalized by their own perceived inadequacies. Mitsch's reflections lead him to confront the pervasive mentality of shame that often clouds our understanding of grace. He articulates a critical observation: many individuals, despite professing faith, internalize a narrative of disappointment in the eyes of God. This perspective, Mitsch argues, not only distorts one's self-image but also obstructs the genuine acceptance of grace. He delves into the cultural and psychological frameworks that propagate these feelings of shame, advocating for a paradigm shift towards self-acceptance and recognition of one's inherent worth as a beloved creation. The episode culminates in a poignant reminder that grace is not a commodity to be earned but a radical gift that redefines our relationship with the divine. Mitsch's insights challenge listeners to dismantle the barriers that prevent them from fully embracing grace, inviting them into a deeper understanding of their spiritual identity and the unconditional love that God offers.
Takeaways:
- Dr. Ray Mitsch emphasizes the importance of understanding grace as a radical and unconditional gift from God.
- A significant obstacle to accepting grace is our inherent inclination towards justice and self-punishment.
- The concept of grace challenges our traditional views on fairness, as it is offered freely without expectation of reciprocity.
- Mitsch reflects on how societal norms of shame can impede personal growth and acceptance of divine grace.
- The podcast discusses the profound acceptance that comes with grace, contrasting it with the punitive mindset prevalent in many individuals.
- Ultimately, the episode illustrates that true transformation occurs when we embrace grace rather than succumbing to shame.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcript
Foreign Welcome.
Speaker A:I am Dr.
Speaker A:Ray Mitch, your host.
Speaker A:I'm so glad that you've taken some time out of your busy schedule to join me as we reflect a little bit more on grace and what makes it such a scandal.
Speaker A:We like to talk about it that way.
Speaker A:But before I do, let me just introduce this a little bit so you know, if you're new.
Speaker A:The Outpost is a digital place where we're building bridges back to faith and strength, trying to strengthen the bridges that already exist.
Speaker A:We're going to do that built on authenticity and trust and grace and ultimately a commitment to intimacy, which is knowing and being known.
Speaker A:And there's a lot of that.
Speaker A:That is a lot more to be, not complicated, but a lot more to share and unpack.
Speaker A:We will take some time to look at each one of those dimensions at some point in time.
Speaker A:And the Outpost, welcome to it, by the way, you are now in it.
Speaker A:And we wanted to create a space, or I wanted to create a space where the doubters and the wounded and the confused and the beat up and beat down and the bent and bruised who live their lives assuming that they're a disappointment with God, which on that point I want to say something about in a minute to feel accepted enough to be known and to be able to know others.
Speaker A:And what we want to do is introduce them or create the kind of context where people can bump into the biblical Jesus as he is, not as they have always assumed him to be.
Speaker A:So get comfortable, relax.
Speaker A:We can see what we get into and what I can get into.
Speaker A:There's always that possibility in terms of the kinds of things that I have to talk about and look at.
Speaker A:So with that, let me go back to that disappointment with, with God.
Speaker A:Or they see their lives as a disappointment to God.
Speaker A:I had a lengthy discussion with a number with a class of mine this spring and it was on that point, excuse me, is when we think about what God feels about us, when he thinks about us, what does he feel or think?
Speaker A:And that is a bigger issue than meets the eye.
Speaker A:Because more often than not I had and these are all students that confess to be following Jesus.
Speaker A:I had more even over the years since I posed that question to them, excuse me, that have said that when God thinks of me, he feels disappointment.
Speaker A:The crazy thing about it is that what we end up doing, even as Christ followers, is that we attribute our conclusions about us to God.
Speaker A:Now everybody will be quick to add, but I know that that's not true.
Speaker A:And quite honestly, pardon my cynicism, I don't really care what you know, because what you know doesn't make any difference anyway.
Speaker A:And so there's that that we have to contend with and God, it seems inconceivable to us.
Speaker A:And because it's inconceivable, then it can't be real that God doesn't feel disappointment in a lot of ways.
Speaker A:I think, quite honestly, God is far more accepting of your humanity than you are.
Speaker A:And acceptance doesn't mean condoning it, doesn't mean patting you on the head and saying, oh, go get them, you'll get it next time kind of stuff.
Speaker A:No, it's not that at all.
Speaker A:It is a matter of he doesn't feel disappointment because we are those of us that are following Jesus.
Speaker A:We are in Christ, in Him.
Speaker A:So when he sees us, he sees him.
Speaker A:So the last I checked, he didn't feel disappointment with Jesus at all.
Speaker A:And that's something to keep in mind, I think, even as we move forward with some of the things we're talking about with grace, you can know encyclopedia's worth about grace and yet live as if you're under the law or under shame, which I think is essentially the outgrowth of the law.
Speaker A:And so there's a lot more than meets the eye, I think, with this whole thing.
Speaker A:And it's worth paying attention.
Speaker A:That's why.
Speaker A:And when I talk about a space for people that are confused and wounded and so forth, I am talking about the vision of a literal space where people can be confused and be angry.
Speaker A:God's not gonna dissolve into a celestial pile of mush because you're angry.
Speaker A:I can tell you he's had a fair amount of practice dealing with it.
Speaker A:So I think in a lot of ways, just between you and me, I think Jesus had more of a preference for real people than he did for good people.
Speaker A:And because he knows our frame, he knows us, he knows our propensities, he sees.
Speaker A:And it really does blow one' mind to think that he sees all of us all at once.
Speaker A:Not only our past and present, but also our future, which, when you think about it, even in a bigger picture or a scriptural picture, even imagine what he saw when he was interacting with Peter.
Speaker A:He wasn't seeing him when he betrayed him, he was seeing him in the future, the apostle that would not even honor himself to be crucified right side up because of his love and faith for Jesus.
Speaker A:And so I think it's worth paying attention to and considering at least what that actually looks like.
Speaker A:And so let me pivot to the topic at hand.
Speaker A:In that pivot we left off talking about the scandal of grace and what it means and how it lands on us and how little we seem to know, not so much based on what we articulate to be true, but how we live according to what we believe.
Speaker A:And that is telling.
Speaker A:It is actually very revealing, and it has a pretty convicting aspect to it, I think, generally speaking.
Speaker A:And so what I want to do just to land this plane as we talk about grace is try to focus our attention to what is the issue?
Speaker A:I mean, why is it so hard for us to accept grace?
Speaker A:And why is it that we just always default to.
Speaker A:We always default to shame?
Speaker A:And Because, I mean, the reality is, let's be real, all right?
Speaker A:Shame gets things done in the short term.
Speaker A:It sure does.
Speaker A:And so it's little wonder that it is so compelling and such a default for us.
Speaker A:Not to mention that there is such a thing as.
Speaker A:What we call in psychology at least, is we call it social communication, and it's built between a caregiver and a child and throughout the family life and the family language and all of that.
Speaker A:And that's what oftentimes is very much communicated over generations, that has been plugged into the matrix of shame.
Speaker A:And I will continue to use that because I think that is the most compelling modern way of understanding shame.
Speaker A:We don't even know.
Speaker A:We are enslaved to even rebel, because it surrounds us, it infuses us, it informs us of our relationships and how we behave and how we feel and how we handle other people's emotions and all of that.
Speaker A:And we can raise, you know, and I don't think that I'm the one to do it, but I can raise people's awareness of that, and they go out and still do the same thing that they always do.
Speaker A:I do, too.
Speaker A:But I can start with awareness, and then I can go to.
Speaker A:I can identify how it actually impacts how I see myself and how I see other people and their emotions.
Speaker A:Maybe I see emotions as weak and vulnerability as a liability, and I'm not interested in it, although I'll be happy to clap and applaud for people that do.
Speaker A:And as Brene Brown famously said, your vulnerability is courageous, but mine repulses me.
Speaker A:And that is very much a part of this.
Speaker A:So what's the issue?
Speaker A:What are the main stumbling blocks here, if you will?
Speaker A:And that's where we get the word scandal, right?
Speaker A:It was rendered as a stumbling block, the scandal of grace.
Speaker A:There are areas within it that I think we stub our toe on regularly, daily, maybe even hourly.
Speaker A:And I think it's worth our while to identify some of them.
Speaker A:So I want to do that and then, and kind of land on a, excuse me, I'm having trouble with my throat here.
Speaker A:And then land the plane on what's next?
Speaker A:And how do we identify it?
Speaker A:And really just realize that the stuff that I'm talking about is contributing to the awareness and the identification rather than to anything else really.
Speaker A:This is not set up for what do I do when this happens.
Speaker A:Although a lot of the questions I get in my classes are that way.
Speaker A:But it is general principles to apply.
Speaker A:And a lot of times the worst part, and this is the indicator of how embedded in shame we are, the worst part is I can say this is what you do or this is what you try when you're interacting with whoever that person is.
Speaker A:And we don't do it.
Speaker A:And most of it is because I don't want to do it wrong.
Speaker A:And that's a shame based way of understanding because I'm trying to preserve the right rather than learn to grow in fullness and abundance.
Speaker A:See, we have a scarcity mentality about all this stuff and that's a whole other conversation to really get into.
Speaker A:So let me talk a little bit about what's the issue and what's the stumbling blocks.
Speaker A:And one of them is that it violates our sense of justice and punishment.
Speaker A:And the reality is we live in a culture that is built on justice.
Speaker A:And a lot of the people, and to some degree myself, a little less, I think, have a very strong streak of justice in them.
Speaker A:And our sense of justice ends up being the same motivation that drives us to demand equality.
Speaker A:Now the thing to keep in mind is that a lot of times you'll hear kids and they'll get a punishment or whatever and what do they say?
Speaker A:Well, that's just not fair, right?
Speaker A:Actually it is very accurate because fairness depends on a judge.
Speaker A:And in this case I am the judge.
Speaker A:And so rather than depending on anyone else, I demand equality because it doesn't require a judge.
Speaker A:You get 50%, I get 50% there, it's equal.
Speaker A:And I have people talking about marriage that same way.
Speaker A:And it sounds good because we see our relationships in a power context or a control context rather than a covenantal context.
Speaker A:And that's where this justice comes from.
Speaker A:So in a lot of cases we are judge, jury and executioner for ourselves.
Speaker A:And so the judge has already spoken and the jury has already spoken in our case.
Speaker A:And so when God offers us the grace to learn and to grow, we say that's not just because if I do something wrong, I should suffer consequences.
Speaker A:Now, we live in a world where that is not entirely the case, right?
Speaker A:We see lots of people getting away with a variety of things without any consequences, at least to the degree that we can tell.
Speaker A:And we have very limited vision.
Speaker A:I think we would all agree that we do.
Speaker A:So the problem with grace is that it requires us to switch our perspective about justice and punishment.
Speaker A:Now, it doesn't require us to let go of understanding that I make a mistake, I do something, then there are consequences to the choices that I've just made.
Speaker A:And that's okay.
Speaker A:That's how I learn, right?
Speaker A:But if I am driven along by shame, then when something happens that I blow it, or I say something stupid or I do something selfish, then I am the worst person on earth.
Speaker A:And how in the world do I change the worst person on earth?
Speaker A:And grace creates this context where potentially I can grow and do it differently.
Speaker A:I may not get it right the next time.
Speaker A:I probably won't.
Speaker A:And by the way, don't make promises you can't keep.
Speaker A:When you say to somebody, I'm so sorry it had an impact on you, I understand what kind of impact it had.
Speaker A:And they say, yeah, it's clear that you understand that.
Speaker A:Don't say, I'll never do it again, because you can't promise that.
Speaker A:And that's what I mean by making promises you can't keep.
Speaker A:So our sense of justice and punishment fight against grace and they applaud shame.
Speaker A:And that's very much a backdrop to this, is that we're looking for an enemy that is a little bit like CO2, you know, carbon monoxide.
Speaker A:It is a colorless gas, but it will kill us if we get too much of it.
Speaker A:And the shame is exactly the same way.
Speaker A:It is invisible to our spiritual eyes, our emotional eyes, because we are plugged into that matrix.
Speaker A:And we're not so sure that we want the real one, really.
Speaker A:I mean, I don't think that we necessarily do want the real one because I'm not willing to trade for real and then have discomfort come along with it.
Speaker A:And that is a big part of it, I think.
Speaker A:So the first one is one of the problems with grace is that it violates our sense of justice and punishment.
Speaker A:And the other thing I want to mention under this kind of topic is punishment is not punishment on someone else.
Speaker A:It is self punishment.
Speaker A:And we are very creative in how we go about handling self punishment.
Speaker A:And what that means is I can not only have what we call A positive impact or a positive punishment.
Speaker A:In other words, there are words or actions that are done to that person, whoever it is, maybe me, and it's done to me.
Speaker A:It's a positive act in the sense that it is there.
Speaker A:There is actually behavior, there's actually words, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker A:There's another aspect of punishment that we don't pay nearly as much attention about, particularly that on which we inflict on ourselves.
Speaker A:And that is the withholding of good is a way to punish us for our bad.
Speaker A:And the way that we do that oftentimes is in relationships or choices that we make or anything else that we have this sense that I need to pay for this thing.
Speaker A:And so the way to go about paying for it is to deny myself the good that is being offered me.
Speaker A:And that even goes to what's the bad.
Speaker A:It's accentuating my badness, if you will.
Speaker A:So there's a lot to that that meets the eye.
Speaker A:The punishment motif, if you will, is the one thing we know in psychology is that punishment is a short term behavior change.
Speaker A:It is not a long term one.
Speaker A:And it seeks only to extinguish the behavior, not to change it.
Speaker A:And that's a key item, I think, to keep in mind when we're talking about our sense of punishment and even self punishment is that I feel bad.
Speaker A:I am overwhelmed with regret.
Speaker A:I am overwhelmed with my sense of shame over what I've done.
Speaker A:And guess what that is?
Speaker A:It's self punishment.
Speaker A:Now that doesn't mean I just brush myself off and say, no harm, no foul, it's fine, I'll go on about my business.
Speaker A:That's not it either.
Speaker A:That's an error in the opposite direction.
Speaker A:But at the same time, I think it's worth paying attention to that.
Speaker A:When grace is offered us, what's our first response?
Speaker A:And a lot of times it's I don't deserve this.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And that's true.
Speaker A:No one's gonna debate that point.
Speaker A:But just because I don't deserve it, why does that interfere with me accepting it?
Speaker A:And that's the other aspect here that I think is important to keep in mind.
Speaker A:So grace is a problem because it violates our sense of justice and punishment.
Speaker A:The second thing is it violates our sense of what I call self punishment versus self acceptance.
Speaker A:And it's retribution even for ourselves and our sense of justice.
Speaker A:The first two here very much tie in together because our sense of retribution, even for ourselves is somebody may be offering us grace and we still do the self punishment instead of Self acceptance.
Speaker A:Now again, remember, acceptance is not patronizingly patting somebody on the head and say, it's okay, try harder next time.
Speaker A:That is not acceptance.
Speaker A:If anything, the worst of it is enabling.
Speaker A:And because essentially I've given the person a pass or I've given myself a pass.
Speaker A:But see, acceptance is living in the reality as it is, not as I would have it to be.
Speaker A:And most of the time we compare the reality that we are in with the reality of how it should be, rather than the reality I'm in.
Speaker A:And that requires acceptance.
Speaker A:And the thing that I want to add in here is you cannot change that which you won't accept if you reject it.
Speaker A:You can, you can.
Speaker A:We've got lots and lots of.
Speaker A:Actually, we've got lots and lots of examples of that.
Speaker A:But you can't change what you won't accept.
Speaker A:If I don't accept the reality of what it is, then what exactly am I going to change?
Speaker A:How it appears I can do that?
Speaker A:Shame tempts me into that.
Speaker A:And so we have misconceptions around each of those things, not only self punishment.
Speaker A:And really the extreme of that is the outcomes that you often see in adolescents and young adolescents and even into adulthood.
Speaker A:And that is significant self harm.
Speaker A:And the funny thing, not funny, the ironic thing about social media is that if you chart the incidence of self harm in adolescence is literally a hockey stick.
Speaker A:It starts out and then it goes straight up.
Speaker A:When social media moved into our phones and that we were surrounded by and infused by the culture of comparison.
Speaker A:So retribution, even for ourselves.
Speaker A:The other thing that's a problem with grace is the most basic, right?
Speaker A:It's free.
Speaker A:It's free.
Speaker A:And that really chafes us.
Speaker A:It really gets.
Speaker A:That is not a pill that goes down well at all.
Speaker A:Because nothing in this world is free.
Speaker A:Everything is subject to trade.
Speaker A:So suddenly we're offered something where it costs the receiver nothing and the giver everything.
Speaker A:And that imbalance is almost intolerable.
Speaker A:Even with God.
Speaker A:Even with God.
Speaker A:And the interesting thing, and this is just an offshoot here, is that the root of the word gratitude or grateful is grace.
Speaker A:There's no surprise.
Speaker A:You probably intuitively figure that out.
Speaker A:And gratitude is the acceptance of grace.
Speaker A:And so the fact that it's free really sticks in our craw if we had one.
Speaker A:And it's a real problem and we really don't like it.
Speaker A:So what do we do?
Speaker A:Most of the time we'll take something that's free and turn it into a trade.
Speaker A:If you give me this, then I will do that.
Speaker A:And that keeps the balances of what?
Speaker A:Justice even.
Speaker A:And that's where the problem comes in.
Speaker A:So it's free is one of the big issues.
Speaker A:I'm not sure maybe we do, but I'm not sure that we really identify.
Speaker A:We might identify that it's free, but we don't identify our response to it being free and the aspect of that that comes into it.
Speaker A:So it costs the receiver nothing, and it costs the giver everything.
Speaker A:And in so many ways, even more so than we could ever really imagine.
Speaker A:Last night I was watching an interview with a guy who has studied the Shroud of Turin.
Speaker A:And his estimation, based on the wounds of the crucified man that is in the Shroud of Turin, is that more likely than not, the flogging he suffered was probably 700 different wounds.
Speaker A:Now, if in fact, which this guy absolutely swears by it, and he's done all the research, this is the burial shroud of Jesus himself.
Speaker A:It's that kind of radical grace and radical love that is almost intolerable to us because we are left speechless and we are left with either gratitude or trade.
Speaker A:I turn it into something that I can do.
Speaker A:So it's free really sticks in our craw.
Speaker A:We would much rather have a balance we can.
Speaker A:A justice balance of justice that we can balance than something that is given to us freely.
Speaker A:Another one is that it's a gift.
Speaker A:And we're not that far away.
Speaker A:I mean, we're about, what, six weeks or five weeks away from Christmas and the holidays.
Speaker A:And why do we give people gifts?
Speaker A:And ultimately we give them gifts to communicate to them their uniqueness and specialness and value to us.
Speaker A:Although it's not a matter of value, but it does communicate a matter of worth with the person.
Speaker A:And generally, the thing that we say is that the greater the gift, the more the worth of the person, the closer they are, the more important they are to us, all of those sorts of things.
Speaker A:And so grace is that gift that we're being given that is so intolerable because it's given to us free, and it is meant to communicate value and worth.
Speaker A:And again, this is one of these things I think we minimize because we are so accustomed to it, and we really don't see it.
Speaker A:So the other aspect here that I don't think we can underestimate is that God Himself was trying, through the gift of grace, to reestablish his image in us.
Speaker A:The imago DEI is the Latin word He was.
Speaker A:In doing so, he reestablished and made, created a path that would allow us to actually get to the point of fully expressing, fully manifesting the image of God himself, because we are designed to be reflectors of that image.
Speaker A:And then the last thing about this, with it being a gift, is that it offers dignity.
Speaker A:I give somebody a gift that they can never repay me for.
Speaker A:I have communicated to them.
Speaker A:They are more important to me than they are to themselves.
Speaker A:And maybe it opens a door for them to see themselves differently.
Speaker A:So the other one, which I've already kind of alluded to, is that there is no quid pro quo.
Speaker A:Now, if you're familiar with that Latin phrase, a lot of people do use it.
Speaker A:It's kicked around in a lot of places, usually, usually in courts of law or things like that.
Speaker A:But there's no quid pro quo.
Speaker A:Easy for me to say, quid pro quo.
Speaker A:It literally means this for that.
Speaker A:And the thing to keep in mind, and we'll look at this when we take some time to talk about shame.
Speaker A:But the heart of shame is contracts and trades.
Speaker A:So there is a trade, good behavior, faithfulness, etc.
Speaker A:The trade is God loves me.
Speaker A:And the heart of shame is quid pro quo.
Speaker A:On the other hand, the heart of grace is binding oneself to another no matter what.
Speaker A:No matter what.
Speaker A:No matter what they do, even no matter what.
Speaker A:Now, that doesn't mean there aren't consequences of the behavior that people do that we've bound ourself to through a covenant.
Speaker A:But at the same time, it's a significant change, I think, in perspective that we have to understand.
Speaker A:And so the reality is, and somebody says, well, this is too good to be true.
Speaker A:And what's the catch?
Speaker A:Because we're looking for a string that's attached, right?
Speaker A:And really the only catch to grace is me opening my heart enough to receive it.
Speaker A:That's the only catch.
Speaker A:Because if I don't open my heart to it, I can't receive it.
Speaker A:And so I'll go back into the matrix of shame and into the world of trades, back into all of that which is entirely graceless when it comes right down to it.
Speaker A:And then the last thing I want to mention is kind of a full circle, is it is grace.
Speaker A:Part of the reason for our struggle with grace is that it is scandalous.
Speaker A:The notion of God's love coming to us free of charge, no strings attached, seems to go against every instinct of our humanity.
Speaker A:And the thing that not to lose sight of is that only Christianity dares to make God's love unconditional.
Speaker A:Only Christianity is the only religion that is that way, and I'm loathe to even use the word religion.
Speaker A:That's the only relationship we have with a deity or a divinity that has no strings attached to it.
Speaker A:It's made freely available to us.
Speaker A:And that is a key problem again, for us.
Speaker A:We want trades and contracts.
Speaker A:We don't want somebody giving to us out of the overflow of their love for us and an increase of our dignity and worth.
Speaker A:We don't want somebody giving that to us without a way for us to pay it back.
Speaker A:And, and grace is that.
Speaker A:And it shows in so many other ways than what we tend to look at.
Speaker A:Like I said, a lot of times I'll have students turn in a paper late and say, I hope I can have grace for you can have grace for this.
Speaker A:And that's translated, I hope that I won't suffer consequences for turning in a late paper.
Speaker A:And that's not gonna happen.
Speaker A:And the reality is the grace, they've already secured the grace that they have.
Speaker A:So as I said at the very beginning, and I will say again as we bring it to a close, throughout the Bible, God shows a marked preference for real people over good people.
Speaker A:It was the good people that were self defined, I might add, that he went after the most partly because their pronouncement of their goodness insulated them from the grace that was being offered them.
Speaker A:And if you want to look at it another way, and you can do this offline, if you want to just look at the story of the prodigal and look at it from the perspective of who was Jesus talking to?
Speaker A:And it was a mixed crowd, but predominantly it was Pharisees and other people that were following him, trying to catch him in his words.
Speaker A:And if you think about it, you have an elder brother who is resistant and digs his heels in.
Speaker A:He has dealt with his dad in terms of contracts and trades.
Speaker A:And then you have a younger brother, a prodigal who spends all of his inheritance and wastes it all on wine, women and song.
Speaker A:And then he comes crawling back to dad and dad throws his arms around him, gives him his best robe, puts a ring on his finger to say, yes, you're my son, you are not my servant, and covers the filth of his journey back home.
Speaker A:And the elder son, because the contract has been violated, has a temper tantrum.
Speaker A:But don't forget who is speaking, because in that culture, the elder son's job would have been to go to get his younger brother and bring him home.
Speaker A:And that old elder brother didn't do it.
Speaker A:But if you Think of Jesus as the good elder brother speaking to his Jewish friends, his Jewish relatives, his Jewish younger brothers.
Speaker A:He went into the far country to bring them home and this was the response he got from them.
Speaker A:And so it's a mind blower really it is when you start thinking about the prodigal in that way.
Speaker A:And Jesus tried over and over and over again and used multiple different methods to try to break through the wall, the resistance that the Pharisees represented because they were the religious leaders of the people.
Speaker A:So God shows a marked preference for real people because they're not going to hold back, they are going to be as they are.
Speaker A:And they trust that the grace that's given them is the eyes through which God will look at them and create the space for them to be able to change and grow and grow into looking and having their heart aligned with Jesus heart.
Speaker A:So something to think about that brings this part, this two part series I've been doing to an end.
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Speaker A:If there's anything I've said or made unclear or anything like that, feel free to either DM me on Instagram or use the contact form at the bottom of the front page of the website.
Speaker A:You can communicate either way that and what the questions are.
Speaker A:And I will do my best to respond.
Speaker A:Subscriptions are always helpful to a podcast.
Speaker A:In the life of the podcast, it raises our profile, it gets more people aware of what we're trying to do.
Speaker A:And so please subscribe.
Speaker A:Please follow us on whatever platform you listen to podcasts on or just check out our social media outlets.
Speaker A:We have one at Instagram, it's GIInternational and Facebook, Stained Glass International, all one word lowercase.
Speaker A:And then LinkedIn, Stained Glass International, all 1 word lowercase.
Speaker A:So there are, there's 2 of them that are identical in terms of their address, depending on what media social media platform you're on.
Speaker A:So if you are interested or willing to partner with us.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
Speaker A:It is most appreciated.
Speaker A:It allows us to grow our scholarship fund and make the silent retreats available to people that can't afford it and maybe even provide a basis for us to expand our operations and begin to expand out into providing physical spaces where people can be known and know each other and learn to live and live freely in grace.
Speaker A:The other thing I just want to mention is that if you got our last newsletter, maybe you didn't, but if you got our last newsletter or you're interested in our groups, there's a QR code on our website and it's under groups.
Speaker A:And you can go down to it and you'll see it.
Speaker A:And it's just a short questionnaire to give us an idea of what interest there is out there on a group in your area.
Speaker A:If you're not from the Denver area or you're near, fill it out.
Speaker A:Let us know your interest.
Speaker A:If you feel like you've had some experience in leading groups or you just are interested in participating in one, you can fill that out.
Speaker A:We just need to be able to get a fix on who's interested and how many and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:So there, there's always that opportunity.
Speaker A:Check out the website.
Speaker A:There are lots of other merchandise there that promote sgi.
Speaker A:From window stickers to my two books.
Speaker A:One is called grieving the loss of someone you love and the other one is called Seasons of our Grief.
Speaker A: , Eastlake, CO: Speaker A:The address, of course, is SGI or Stained Glass International, whichever is easiest to write, which is usually how I how I write anyway.
Speaker A:So I think that's it for today.
Speaker A:Thanks so much for joining me.
Speaker A:I appreciate your time and and effort to to join us for these short walks through grace and even shame.
Speaker A:And I pray blessings on God on your journey with God through the week and until next time.
Speaker A:Love you later.
Speaker A:Bye.
