Navigating the Spiritual Landscape of Gen Z: A Conversation with Dr. Ray Mitsch and Sarah Zylstra
What Christians should know about Gen Z is at the forefront of this engaging conversation between Dr. Ray Mitsch and Sarah Zylstra. The episode delves into the unique challenges and perspectives of the Gen Z generation, exploring their spiritual inclinations, community needs, and the impact of social media on their lives. Zylstra highlights that while Gen Z may not identify as atheists, they often hold agnostic views, creating a complex landscape for the church to navigate. The discussion also emphasizes the importance of authenticity in relationships and the necessity for churches to create spaces where young people feel genuinely cared for. As they unpack these themes, listeners gain valuable insights into how to effectively connect with and support this generation on their spiritual journeys.
Takeaways:
- Gen Z is often not atheistic but more agnostic, seeking spirituality without commitment.
- This generation values authentic community where they can feel accepted and understood.
- Social media creates a double bind for Gen Z, fostering both connection and loneliness.
- Churches must adapt to Gen Z's unique challenges by providing clearer expectations and engagement.
- Gen Z struggles with anxiety and depression, despite living in a comfortable society.
- Creating safe spaces for conversations about faith can draw in skeptical young people.
Link to Sarah's article: 6 Things Christians Should Know About Gen Z
Transcript
Imagine for a moment that you are a road weary traveler.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You're tired, you're hungry and wondering if there will ever be a safe place to rest.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You've been told there's an outpost ahead that provides safety information for the road ahead and people who understand what the journey is like.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You keep scanning the horizon, hoping against hope that it will be there.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Then, as you come over a rise in the terrain, you suddenly catch a glimpse of it.
Dr. Ray Mitch:There it stands, beckoning you to come and find the rest you need.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You're moments away from the Outpost.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Well, greetings and welcome everybody to another edition of the Outpost podcast.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I am Dr.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Ray Mitch, your host.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It is a delight to spend some time with you to talk about the current issues of the day and also the current issues that are relevant to the Gen Z is what we're talking about tonight.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I am delighted to be joined by a newfound friend in Sarah Zylstra, who wrote an article called six Things Christians Should Know About Gen Z.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And we will get to that in just a second.
Dr. Ray Mitch:For those of you who are listening and are unfamiliar with what the Outpost is all about, the Outpost is a digital place where we're building bridges back to faith and strengthening or strengthening the bridges of faith that are built ultimately on authenticity and trust and grace and a commitment to knowing and being known.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And that is a key element to that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And so we're trying to create a space where the doubters, the wounded, the confused, the beat up and beat down, the bent and bruised who feel like their lives are a disappointment to God to feel accepted enough to know and know others.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And we want to be a place ultimately a real time place where people can meet the biblical Jesus as he is, not as they've been told he is.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So at least temporarily, I think, in the grand scheme of things, Stained Glass International, or sgi, will begin hosting groups at the turn of the new year.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And it will be a digital place to meet and to talk and to do that and hopefully, Lord willing and the creek don't roast.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And yes, I am from my roots are from Indiana and that's where that comes from.
Dr. Ray Mitch:We will move into real time, real places where you can find the community that you're searching for.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And so tonight is a particularly special night.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I invited a writer for the Gospel Coalition who, as I mentioned earlier, Zara Silstra, that wrote an article called six Things Christians Should Know About Gen Z.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And one of my efforts in interviewing her and talking to her was trying to describe and to create a context of what a lot of my students that are part of Gen Z are facing and she has some, some very good insights.
Dr. Ray Mitch:She has interviewed and talked to a variety of campus ministry people in terms of what they see and the experiences that a lot of Gen Z has had.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And so it will this interview will perhaps give you some words to describe what your experience is like, if that's the generation that you're from and maybe even if you aren't.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And in a lot of cases I have seen, because I interact a lot with that particular generation and I am not of that generation and you probably only have to see a picture of me to know that I'm not.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But I have a lot of affinity with where they're coming from and the struggles and the challenges they face in connecting and understanding what God has to say at all, of any relevance at all in their lives.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And so that's why it was born certainly in me to develop Stained Glass because we oftentimes create the image of who we are rather than the reality of who we are because we don't trust people with the reality of who we are.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And that's where the stained glass comes in and that's what we are talking about.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So pull up a chair, get comfortable, relax, listen into the conversation and see if there's anything in there that rings a bell or you find affirming, or you say, wow, that's really way off.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And please communicate that to us.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Whether that's on Instagram @sginternational or Facebook @ Stained Glass International, any of those places, you can prompt us and react and respond to us in that way.
Dr. Ray Mitch:There's also a contact form on the website@sgi-net.org where you can interact with us there and me as well.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I'd love to hear the feedback and the reaction that you have to some of what we talked about.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So without delaying any further, let me start the interview.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You can listen in and then on the backside I will do my usual end up program reminder so you don't forget kind of the key places to visit on the website and things of that sort.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And until then, I hope you enjoy the conversation.
Dr. Ray Mitch:All right.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Well, welcome, Sarah, to the Outpost podcast.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I am so excited you get to be my guinea pig.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I've never done, I've done thousands of interviews, but never ones like this.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So thanks so much for joining me.
Sarah Zylstra:This is great.
Sarah Zylstra:Thanks for having me.
Sarah Zylstra:This is fun.
Dr. Ray Mitch:This is fun.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So tell me, tell me a little bit about yourself.
Dr. Ray Mitch:All I know is you're in Kansas City and that's about all I know.
Sarah Zylstra:So, yeah, so I.
Sarah Zylstra:I grew up in Iowa.
Sarah Zylstra:I went to Dort University in the northwest corner of Iowa.
Sarah Zylstra:I met my husband there.
Sarah Zylstra:And then we moved to Chicago, and we actually spent 20 years in Chicago, where I wrote for Christianity Today and then later for the Gospel Coalition.
Sarah Zylstra:And then just last year, we moved to Kansas City.
Sarah Zylstra:So we love it here.
Sarah Zylstra:It's been a really great fit for us.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Chicago.
Dr. Ray Mitch:All right, now you got my curiosity up.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Where in Chicago we were in.
Sarah Zylstra:Well, we spent some time in the city, especially when he was.
Sarah Zylstra:He went to the University of Chicago.
Sarah Zylstra:So we lived in Hyde park for a few years.
Sarah Zylstra:We popped out to Oak park for a year, and then we spent most of our time in Homewood, which is in the south suburbs.
Sarah Zylstra:And then my kids went to school in the Naperville and Wheaton suburbs.
Sarah Zylstra:So I would drive over there.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Well, you're talking to a Wheaton transplant.
Sarah Zylstra:Okay, very cool.
Dr. Ray Mitch:We lived there for 12 years and had all our kids there.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I worked at the Minute Mark Clinic there in Wheaton.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And Connecticut was right down from my office, actually, in my private practice with Carol Stream.
Sarah Zylstra:Yes.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So it was like distance to ct.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Anyway, so what prompted me to invite you is the article you wrote.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And the article was, what Six Things Christians Should Know about Gen Z.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And like I said to you on the lead up, it was like, I wonder if we can put some clothing on this for a lot of my listeners are in that generation or just prior.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So they relate really well to it.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But like I said, I think in a lot of cases, they haven't really put words to what their experiences are like.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And that's what I liked about your article.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It's kind of succinctly put it all together and then we'll kind of pivot because it's like, all right, now that we've identified some of that, what's the church got to do here?
Dr. Ray Mitch:And that was my reference to the I world, which I'll probably throw in there at some point.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So tell me, I mean, how did you come to writing an article like this?
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:So the Gospel Coalition's main goal is to help local churches and local pastors, give them resources.
Sarah Zylstra:And I think what we started to hear is that as Gen Z graduated from college, they were starting to come to walk into churches.
Sarah Zylstra:And I don't mean that to say they weren't going to church before, but they were going with their parents.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:They were starting to walk in on their own.
Sarah Zylstra:They became adults, essentially, is what happened.
Sarah Zylstra:And so we and our pastors were noticing that they were different.
Sarah Zylstra:As you know, they're the I generation.
Sarah Zylstra:And so they were different even from millennials.
Sarah Zylstra:And so they just were wondering like, you know, who is this new generation?
Sarah Zylstra:And so then I just tried to figure out some distinctives about them that would be helpful for pastors to know.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah, so nobody conscripted you, you noticed a trend and then you tracked down these people, right?
Sarah Zylstra:Yes.
Sarah Zylstra:And everybody I asked, you'll see work.
Sarah Zylstra:They're like all campus ministry people.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So they noticed that.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, people who have been working with this generation, but also hopefully some of them were, have been working with other generations too, which I think helps to do kind of the comparison.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah, sure.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So big picture, I mean, what is the church missing?
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean I see those six and you know, I'm living in amongst that territory.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So it's like, yeah, I'm going, mm, that really is it.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But the church at large, it seems like there's such a disconnect.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, I think so.
Sarah Zylstra:I think it's hard for churches always to keep up.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:It's harder for the older generation, especially if they don't work with kids.
Sarah Zylstra:We even see this inside Gen Z.
Sarah Zylstra:I've got two Gen Z kids myself and even in the four year gap between them, I can see differences in their experiences.
Sarah Zylstra:So I think even inside of Gen Z they're not all monolithic.
Sarah Zylstra:And so I think that makes it even harder for older generations to keep their finger on the pulse of everything.
Sarah Zylstra:I do think that.
Sarah Zylstra:I don't know that it's a church's job to try and know the latest tick tock trend.
Sarah Zylstra:As long as they're preaching the gospel.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:Then that's their.
Sarah Zylstra:So what they're missing is like, I hope they're not missing the gospel.
Sarah Zylstra:If they have Jesus at the center, then there's still hope they're doing the right thing.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Right, right, right.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So I mean one of the questions you had, and I will just walk through the six and see what we can get ourselves into, you said they, they, they aren't atheists.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Kind of.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I love the conditional there.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Tell me more.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean, what did you find from the people you were talking to?
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, this is so interesting.
Sarah Zylstra:So Gen Z aren't, if you think about atheists, are people who would say there is no God.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:I don't believe that there is a God at all.
Sarah Zylstra:And really throughout all of America, of all age groups, even though our society is becoming more secular, the number of people who Say there is no God is still very, very small.
Sarah Zylstra:And so I think that's also true of this generation.
Sarah Zylstra:I would call them more agnostic, right?
Sarah Zylstra:Of just, they'll say they're just like, maybe there's something spiritual out there.
Sarah Zylstra:They like the idea of spirituality, maybe.
Sarah Zylstra:But this generation, even in the conversations I've had since this article, college students will tell me that their non Christian friends aren't hostile to their faith.
Sarah Zylstra:It's not like they're saying, we're think this is terrible, we hate that you believe this, we hate you.
Sarah Zylstra:What they're more likely to say is, oh, that's great for you that you're choosing this, I'm going to choose this over here.
Sarah Zylstra:But everybody sort of live and let live.
Sarah Zylstra:So they're not necessarily atheists, but neither are they really engaging that question a lot.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So what ends up happening is they have a menu of spirituality and Christianity is just one of them.
Sarah Zylstra:I think that is.
Sarah Zylstra:Or like a form of spirituality, right?
Sarah Zylstra:Or just like I sort of believe in a God out there.
Sarah Zylstra:Or maybe I would think that there's a higher power or you know, there's, there's.
Sarah Zylstra:We're also hearing like renewed interest in like, oh, I wear this charm, right?
Sarah Zylstra:Or oh, I have these essential oils that make me feel better.
Sarah Zylstra:Not that I'm trying to put down essential oils, but you know, like they're, oh, I have these spices that I hang over here.
Sarah Zylstra:So there's still a desire for some sort of connection, but I think a lot of it is, yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:Or maybe I would say, oh, Jesus, that's great, he was probably a nice guy.
Sarah Zylstra:But there's also some other, maybe I'll pull something from Buddhism or maybe I'll pull an idea from Hinduism or just kind of follow my favorite TikTok person and see what they do.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And yeah, I wonder how much MTD came up.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Are you familiar with that?
Dr. Ray Mitch:Moralistic therapeutic deism?
Dr. Ray Mitch:Oh, and I wonder how much that came up.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I'm hearing more about that and increasingly even a Christian university, I'm a little surprised in their quieter moments that they buy some of that stuff.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It's like a watered down version that isn't Christocentric, but it's God's there when I need him, when I have a hard time and all good people go to heaven.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And for somebody like me and the boomer generation, our heads are blowing up with these, each passing one.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And yet they're going, well, what else would there be?
Dr. Ray Mitch:Did that ever come up with some of the people you Talked to, I noticed Tony Dentman.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Is he still the guy at uic?
Sarah Zylstra:He still is, yeah, he still is.
Sarah Zylstra:I definitely think there is a.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:I think that is definitely still true.
Sarah Zylstra:Like, you reach for God when you need him, right.
Sarah Zylstra:Or you reach for God when things are kind of hard and then he's so easy to put back down again.
Sarah Zylstra:I think our culture, even between me and my kids, there's.
Sarah Zylstra:We live in such an affluent culture and we're.
Sarah Zylstra:And so I think that also play.
Sarah Zylstra:These are kids who are pretty comfortable in general.
Sarah Zylstra:More comfortable probably than any other generation born in the history of the world, if you think about it.
Sarah Zylstra:If you think about the wealth of the United States.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:And the ease of the things that we need and everything is just.
Sarah Zylstra:If you want to order it on Amazon, it's just.
Sarah Zylstra:There's just a simplicity to their life and yet it doesn't come.
Sarah Zylstra:They don't.
Sarah Zylstra:They feel insecure as well.
Sarah Zylstra:And you can see that from the anxiety and the depression statistics.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah, some of the.
Dr. Ray Mitch:One of the second item you came up with was the looking for a better community.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And one of the things that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:My organization is called Stained Glass International, that seems to resonate with a lot of them because it's like I create the appearance of something and then I can live safely behind it and the appearance is acceptable, but then I still have me back here that isn't assailed by anything, in a sense.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And so they're almost more protected now, you said something that caught my attention in terms of more comfortable and affluent.
Dr. Ray Mitch:That seems to be a very big driving force for this generation.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Has that come through at all?
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, I do.
Sarah Zylstra:So what's so interesting about them is that they're physically so comfortable and stable and yet they don't feel very stable or comfortable.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:And so it's so interesting to watch their.
Sarah Zylstra:I don't.
Sarah Zylstra:So they just seem to be a little bit more cynical on the one hand, right?
Sarah Zylstra:Like, if they see something, they.
Sarah Zylstra:They think that's probably not true.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:And this comes from years of them doing this to other people.
Sarah Zylstra:Like, I know I took a picture of my room that was clean.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:I know I only showed the test score.
Sarah Zylstra:That was the good test score.
Sarah Zylstra:I only showed the practice or the game that I won, you know, like, so they know they're doing it and they assume other people are doing it to them, which they are.
Sarah Zylstra:And so I think there's kind of a cynicism that grows out of that.
Sarah Zylstra:So it's hard for them, I think to believe that things are good.
Sarah Zylstra:I think it's hard for them to believe, hey, we're actually doing really good on world hunger.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:Or like, hey, our country's not at war right now.
Sarah Zylstra:Or like, hey, you're getting a great education or whatever it is.
Sarah Zylstra:It's just hard.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, Their mindset is a little bit more difficult.
Dr. Ray Mitch:They take the internal and then project it onto the world around them.
Sarah Zylstra:I think so.
Sarah Zylstra:And also if you think about the way they intake their news, it's a lot of bad news.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:So it's a lot of.
Sarah Zylstra:And they don't get a break from it because it's on their phone, they're scrolling it and then it never ends.
Sarah Zylstra:And so then that also feels like a lot to carry.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah, I remember back this is going to date me.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But when the Iraq war happened and the news Cycle wasn't a 24 hour news cycle and where I was working, I was working at adolescent inpatient unit and we were talking to the adolescents there and they had this existential anxiety because they saw the war happen and it wasn't.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And they didn't have video game.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Well, they did a little bit and not the kind we have now, but I think that bled into the anxiety they generally had.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I wonder if that's just.
Dr. Ray Mitch:We're seeing the harvest of a lot of that.
Sarah Zylstra:Makes sense.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So what would I put this question on our sheet?
Dr. Ray Mitch:What would a better community look like to them?
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, this is.
Sarah Zylstra:Here's where I think Gen Z has two problems here.
Sarah Zylstra:And one is that they have an idealized view of friendship drawn from social media and that nothing could ever live up to.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:Like they, so just they feel like their friendships need to be so good, better than an actual human friendship is.
Sarah Zylstra:And then the second problem they have is that they are genuinely, I think, self.
Sarah Zylstra:Admittedly socially anxious and socially awkward.
Sarah Zylstra:And so it's hard.
Sarah Zylstra:That's hard for them.
Sarah Zylstra:It's hard for them to commit to a gathering and it's easy for them to skip.
Sarah Zylstra:It's hard for them to make eye contact, easy for them to grab their phones.
Sarah Zylstra:And so it's so, you know, everything is sort of shaping them to be antisocial, I guess.
Sarah Zylstra:And so it just, yeah, it just gets easier and easier for them to be antisocial.
Sarah Zylstra:So I think a better community for them would be a gathering of people who don't flake but who stick with you through the awkwardness.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:It would be real, it wouldn't just be a photo shoot, it would be authentic.
Sarah Zylstra:It would be genuine.
Sarah Zylstra:It would maybe give you a shared purpose to work toward.
Sarah Zylstra:Hopefully it would be relaxed enough where you could laugh a lot.
Sarah Zylstra:I think this generation maybe doesn't laugh as much, and so it would be anxiety.
Sarah Zylstra:I think it does.
Sarah Zylstra:I think it does.
Sarah Zylstra:You find those kinds of communities in families, right?
Sarah Zylstra:Like, they stick with you.
Sarah Zylstra:I think you also find those kind of communities in a local church.
Sarah Zylstra:Like you can.
Sarah Zylstra:Your local church will stick with you even if you're a pain in the butt and even if you flip.
Sarah Zylstra:They'll still be there next Sunday, right?
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Wow.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And they're lonely.
Dr. Ray Mitch:That was.
Dr. Ray Mitch:That one really jumped out of me was how lonely they are in spite of their connectedness.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, I know.
Dr. Ray Mitch:That's phenomenal.
Sarah Zylstra:It's so counterintuitive.
Sarah Zylstra:It almost feels like the whole generation is introverted.
Sarah Zylstra:And I don't know if a whole generation can be introverted, but is this the introverted generation?
Dr. Ray Mitch:They're split.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And so I.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And that's.
Dr. Ray Mitch:That's kind of what my.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Oftentimes.
Dr. Ray Mitch:My concern is.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I do a couple different classes that have groups in them, and you would think I'm asking them to get a root canal without an anesthetic.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean, I've got to look at somebody and trust them.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You're out of your mind.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And yet by the time it's all over, it's like, this was the best thing ever.
Dr. Ray Mitch:How did I.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You know?
Dr. Ray Mitch:And.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And that's that loneliness piece.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It seems to me, like you said, we're connected, but we're not.
Dr. Ray Mitch:They seem a generation of paradoxes.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:I think one thing that makes them feel more lonely, it's an A generation that is introspective.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:Like, they're asking questions about themselves.
Sarah Zylstra:They're wondering who they are.
Sarah Zylstra:They're wondering what they're supposed to do.
Sarah Zylstra:They're wondering.
Sarah Zylstra:They're trying on all these different identities.
Sarah Zylstra:And part of that is social media.
Sarah Zylstra:Part of that is just being a teenager and trying to figure out who you are.
Sarah Zylstra:But when you look at yourself a lot, it's easy to ask a lot of questions, like, do I have any friends?
Sarah Zylstra:Does anybody like me?
Sarah Zylstra:Would anybody want to hang out with me?
Sarah Zylstra:And I think those are questions that everybody asks, but this generation maybe asks that a lot.
Sarah Zylstra:And I think those kind of questions make you feel anxious.
Sarah Zylstra:Maybe questions that would be better would be like, who can I sit by?
Sarah Zylstra:Who can I ask to go to the movie with me?
Sarah Zylstra:Who cannot?
Sarah Zylstra:Like to turn those questions outward a little bit more, maybe, and just say who could do.
Sarah Zylstra:I want to do this?
Sarah Zylstra:Who could do this with me instead of like, oh, am I worth being friends with?
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah, well.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And it seems like I don't know that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And that's just.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Well, I can't say I'm an armchair psychologist, because I am one.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But I mean, it seems like they live in their heads a lot rather than in real time, which is what you're describing.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You know, something that caught my attention as I was reading your article and I put.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I said this even in the notes I sent you, is the double bind.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It seems like they're in.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And that adds to the anxiety.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So everything is on social media and that's where they find out everything.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But then disengaging from it creates anxiety.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And then they.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You said they cycle through deleting and reinstalling.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It's like, oh, my God, what is happening?
Sarah Zylstra:I know, I know.
Sarah Zylstra:I sometimes.
Sarah Zylstra:So it seems to me like social media sometimes acts like salt water.
Sarah Zylstra:Like I'm craving relationships.
Sarah Zylstra:Oh, this looks like a relationship.
Sarah Zylstra:I'm drinking it.
Sarah Zylstra:It's not a relationship.
Sarah Zylstra:It is a shallow, twisted version of a relationship.
Sarah Zylstra:Oh, I'm sort of sick from it and I need to back off from it.
Sarah Zylstra:Oh, I'm really craving relationship.
Sarah Zylstra:So this looks like relationship.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:We're just back in a.
Sarah Zylstra:Yes, rounded.
Sarah Zylstra:I feel for them.
Sarah Zylstra:I do.
Sarah Zylstra:Especially for the girls.
Sarah Zylstra:I think it's easier for boys to get off of social media, but for girls, I think it's really, really hard.
Sarah Zylstra:And I know they go through cycles.
Sarah Zylstra:If you are a girl who is doing that, I would just encourage you make those.
Sarah Zylstra:It's like a muscle.
Sarah Zylstra:So the longer you can make those breaks longer and longer.
Sarah Zylstra:Take those breaks oftener and oftener.
Sarah Zylstra:And just like the more distance you can get for yourself, the healthier you'll be.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:The thing that caught my attention was when one of the campus people you were talking to, I forget who it was.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It may have been the Dawes that said something about when you talk about a fast and they think about social media, it's like the ancient saint, the desert fathers would be rolling over their grave at the.
Dr. Ray Mitch:At the thought of that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:All previous generations think food right away.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Food.
Sarah Zylstra:And the generations you say fast, they think social media.
Sarah Zylstra:It's really interesting.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:What was the other thing?
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I guess that goes back to the double bind.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I don't know how familiar you are with that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I traffic in it all the time, but it's in relationships and other things where I'm asked to do One thing, and I'm penalized and I don't do it, or I do it and I'm penalized.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I don't do it, and I'm penalized.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And so it seems like that social media, in spite of the dopamine rush, they get out of it, which creates this addictive cycle almost, it sounds like.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Were people pointing to that?
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, there's definitely.
Sarah Zylstra:There's definitely dopamine that gets released from that.
Sarah Zylstra:And so it absolutely can create an addiction.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, I think that's just.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, yeah, we see it.
Sarah Zylstra:I was hoping for a while, actually, you know, for a long time, everybody was on Facebook, and that was just the one place, and everybody was there.
Sarah Zylstra:But for this generation, it is not Facebook.
Sarah Zylstra:In fact, there's like four or five different places.
Sarah Zylstra:And I was like.
Sarah Zylstra:I was hoping, like, oh, because there's so many different ones.
Sarah Zylstra:Maybe you could be like, well, I'm on, you know, Snapchat, but I'm not on Bereal or something.
Sarah Zylstra:And so then it would dilute the draw of it because not everybody would be there.
Sarah Zylstra:When everybody is in one place, it's very difficult not to be there, too.
Sarah Zylstra:But sadly, I think what happened instead is that now you have to be on all the places.
Sarah Zylstra:I don't think it's now.
Sarah Zylstra:When I talk to girls, they have, like, five different social media accounts.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:And so you're like, well, shoot, I thought it was going to be loosening the tie, but I wonder if it just made it even tighter.
Sarah Zylstra:Because now you have to check five social media accounts instead of one.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Hence the doom.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Zoom.
Dr. Ray Mitch:The doom.
Dr. Ray Mitch:What I want to say that comes out of that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You know, the fascinating thing that you mentioned was how principled they are, and that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:That really caught my attention because it seems like this is also dynamic in terms of their ideas about things and very socially anchored.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So whoever I'm with is kind of the principle I'm following.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But it sounds like you found something else.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, I think you're right that whoever I'm with is the principal I'm following.
Sarah Zylstra:I just think that they're standards.
Sarah Zylstra:They're very strict in the, like, they're very high standards for behavior.
Sarah Zylstra:Because if you mess up on something, if you're not up to date on what the thing is that we're all together on and you mess it up, then you're going to be canceled and maybe very painfully and publicly in a very shameful way.
Sarah Zylstra:And so then they're.
Sarah Zylstra:They have to be very careful with what they say and when they say it and it and their.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, their standards.
Sarah Zylstra:They have high standards for behaving nicely toward people, but they'll also cancel you in a second if they don't think that you're being nice towards somebody.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:So it's just like a.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It's a really fragile thing.
Sarah Zylstra:It's so.
Sarah Zylstra:That's a perfect word for it.
Sarah Zylstra:It is so it is very fragile.
Sarah Zylstra:And you can see why they're anxious then.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Right.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Well, and I think back to a lot.
Dr. Ray Mitch:A lot of the.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Even the clients I've worked with in the past where, you know, you can be.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You can be their best friend on one session, next friend, next time, you are their most hated enemy.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And it seems like that's just on steroids in social media, which, okay, if I'm principled, maybe this is just.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I'm giving away my generation here, but if I'm just principled, then that will guide me to everything that I do thereafter.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But these sound dynamic.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, you're right.
Sarah Zylstra:So principles isn't even the right word for it because if you had principles, they would be stemming from something, hopefully from the word of God or even laws of nature or something that would be stable.
Sarah Zylstra:So I don't.
Sarah Zylstra:I guess I don't even know what you would call it.
Sarah Zylstra:Shifting rules.
Sarah Zylstra:They're playing a game where the rules are always changing.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yes.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean, some people are calling it 3D checkers, but that's way too structured.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean, yeah, guys buck the system if it is imposed on them, but then they'll impose everything on themselves in the meantime.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah, it's kind of crazy that way.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So, I mean, you said something just now.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It was like, well, they'll cancel you in a heartbeat.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And so where is right and wrong?
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean, how do they determine that?
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, I think they just have to watch each other.
Sarah Zylstra:And so I think a lot of them actually become lurkers, like lurking around the edges of social media.
Sarah Zylstra:I think they do that.
Sarah Zylstra:For one, they don't want to be canceled for sure.
Sarah Zylstra:But two, I think if you play the social media influencer game and don't win, which is, by the way, the vast, vast, vast majority of people, then it can start to feel like.
Sarah Zylstra:I think it's just easier and easier not to post.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:So you would maybe go and consume other people's posts, but you're not contributing anything yourself.
Sarah Zylstra:I don't have a value judgment on that.
Sarah Zylstra:Like, well, that's just, you know, what you're doing.
Sarah Zylstra:However, what I'm wondering about is if that Makes you then become more of a lurker in real life.
Sarah Zylstra:Like, are you sort of around the edges of other social gatherings?
Sarah Zylstra:Are you?
Sarah Zylstra:I was just at.
Sarah Zylstra:I was at a campus ministry meeting at Iowa State.
Sarah Zylstra:Awesome.
Sarah Zylstra:Really great time, great place.
Sarah Zylstra:They had like a thousand kids there.
Sarah Zylstra:They were worshiping together.
Sarah Zylstra:And then at the end, almost everybody left, ran out to their cars and left.
Sarah Zylstra:I was like, oh, I don't think that would have happened in previous generations.
Sarah Zylstra:You would have had to kick them out of the church eventually because they would be there all night talking to each other.
Sarah Zylstra:So I'm wondering.
Sarah Zylstra:I was like, I wonder if it's almost like lurking.
Sarah Zylstra:Like you're together and then you're socially don't know what to say.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:And you're not on the stage, so you're just.
Sarah Zylstra:So it's uncomfortable.
Sarah Zylstra:And then you're just like, why, I'm out of here.
Sarah Zylstra:I'm just gonna go back to where I'm comfortable.
Dr. Ray Mitch:That's consoling.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I spent a year in Ames and we didn't see that kind of response.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But they dispersed so easily, so they're so loosely connected.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It sounds like.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, I think that's true.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You said, isn't great with communication and commitment.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Well, I did it with that one.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But I guess I asked, how does that translate into committing to a church?
Dr. Ray Mitch:You had some thoughts on that in your article.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:I mean, yeah, I can't remember what I said in this article.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Well, they get something, they own it.
Dr. Ray Mitch:If somebody's framed it like, they understand it.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, I think that's true.
Sarah Zylstra:Like, if you give them a purpose.
Sarah Zylstra:I think we don't actually ask enough of our college students.
Sarah Zylstra:And so I think if there was a church that had college students coming to it and they said, hey, here's the nursery sign up.
Sarah Zylstra:Right?
Sarah Zylstra:Like, sign up for nursery.
Sarah Zylstra:Hey, we need these chairs moved on Tuesday night.
Sarah Zylstra:So who's going to come and move the chairs?
Sarah Zylstra:Like, I think if you gave them, think about how that takes the social anxiety off.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:When you have a job to do and you walk into a building and they say, hey, hand these bulletins out to every person who comes in.
Sarah Zylstra:Like, all of a sudden you feel more comfortable.
Sarah Zylstra:You're stepping inside a structure.
Sarah Zylstra:And so I think if we use that structure, lean on that structure, I think that would make people feel more comfortable.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I wonder how much of that is we're assuming too much, that they know too.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Know more than they do and that, you know, generally the mistake we make is that we think they they're ignoring it versus they are ignorant of it.
Sarah Zylstra:I agree.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Dead.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And that's the instructions.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean, you, you had somebody that said, if you make it very clear what the expectations are, how it's going to be done, they're all over it.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But without that, they flounder.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It seems like, yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:And I think that not only social media, but we just live in a, we live in a culture that's less formal than it used to be.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:We wear less formal clothes, we say less formal things to each other.
Sarah Zylstra:We.
Sarah Zylstra:I was even thinking about that.
Sarah Zylstra:Like, man, you used to have to plan ahead so carefully with rides, places for your kids, and now you can text somebody.
Sarah Zylstra:I don't even have to text my kid.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:I can look, be like, oh, where is my 18 year old?
Sarah Zylstra:I can see on my phone where he is.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, exactly.
Sarah Zylstra:I don't have to like, plan ahead of time.
Sarah Zylstra:We're just much less, we're much more informal.
Sarah Zylstra:We're much less planned out than we used to be.
Sarah Zylstra:And I think so.
Sarah Zylstra:I think for kids who are growing up not only with their social media, but also in that kind of a culture, it can also be like, but I don't know what to do.
Sarah Zylstra:Then there's no, you know, there's no sort of expectations of what you do when, oh, do I shake your hand and look you in the eye and smile and say, hi, Mr.
Sarah Zylstra:So and so.
Sarah Zylstra:Like, I don't.
Sarah Zylstra:That's not.
Sarah Zylstra:Nobody teaches me that anymore.
Sarah Zylstra:We don't, we just say like, oh, hey, Tom.
Sarah Zylstra:Or, you know, we're just, we're so much more relaxed.
Sarah Zylstra:And so it just, it just opens up.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:Ambiguity.
Sarah Zylstra:Ambiguity and that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Well, and that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And it's funny you use that word because they don't handle that well at all.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And then when you go into faith, that's all ambiguity.
Dr. Ray Mitch:A lot of it is.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And they're scared spitless of that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So the, all the guys, all the people that you interviewed, because there were some people from the Bronx or wait a minute, Brooklyn.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:We're talking to a guy from uic, another one at Berkeley.
Dr. Ray Mitch:What a diverse group of people.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean, if you boil down some of their.
Dr. Ray Mitch:What, what does the church need to hear?
Dr. Ray Mitch:How would you summarize that?
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You can have.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I didn't know you had Gen Z in your house.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So my condolences.
Sarah Zylstra:They can be great.
Sarah Zylstra:They can be.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Oh, absolutely.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I like hanging out with them.
Dr. Ray Mitch:They give me life.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But I got millennials and Gen Xers here, so I'm the older generation.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, that makes sense.
Sarah Zylstra:I think what the church can hear is, or if I could say one thing to the church, it would be to create a place where they can hear the Gospel.
Sarah Zylstra:Because if you keep pointing your kids to their sin and their need for a savior and his love for them, then that's an environment where they will thrive no matter what generation that they are in.
Sarah Zylstra:So that is.
Sarah Zylstra:Is number one.
Sarah Zylstra:And I think that also provides for them the identity that they're looking for.
Sarah Zylstra:The structure that they're looking for, it takes away.
Sarah Zylstra:Yep.
Sarah Zylstra:There's ambiguity all over it.
Sarah Zylstra:But really, if you.
Sarah Zylstra:If you're reading your Bible and you're into your Bible, there's also a lot of structure.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:It's not shy about telling you how to live.
Sarah Zylstra:And so I think the more you submit yourself to that and do your quiet times, I think the more comfortable you'll feel.
Sarah Zylstra:Because you know what?
Sarah Zylstra:Don't we all just want to feel like we're doing the right thing?
Sarah Zylstra:Am I doing the right thing?
Sarah Zylstra:Is this the right thing?
Sarah Zylstra:Should I go to this college?
Sarah Zylstra:Should I major in this?
Sarah Zylstra:Should I do this with my kids?
Sarah Zylstra:Like your whole life you're asking, am I doing the right thing?
Sarah Zylstra:And so I think the only.
Sarah Zylstra:If you feel like you are, then you just feel so much more comfortable.
Sarah Zylstra:And I think that's what a life lived in the Gospel will do.
Sarah Zylstra:I also think pointing them to a healthy local church or an organization or a thing like somewhere where you can have Christian community that will stick with you, I think that's also going to be really healthy.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Well, some of that is the purpose behind what I formed is because the outpost groups are extra church, but they create some kind of community that they can talk about life as it really is, not as they want it to be, if you will.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And having those conversations are a little tough to accomplish because of all the things that we just talked about, with their sense of communication and connectedness and almost an intermediary of connectedness, not really in real time.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And the other thing that you mentioned that caught my attention, which I've been talking about lately, is the right.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And to some degree, there's almost a tyranny in them of rightness.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And there's a search for the mystery of right rather than how do I enter in and trust.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And this is not a generation about trust.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It really doesn't seem to be, at least from what I'm seeing.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, I think you're right.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I wonder how much that enters into even their Relationship with God, for that matter.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, yep, yep.
Sarah Zylstra:I think you're right.
Sarah Zylstra:I think they would.
Sarah Zylstra:Their generation, it's, it's looking for truth, for something to trust, and yet they're not going to probably take that on face value.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:And that comes from their looking at each other, showing the best part of.
Dr. Ray Mitch:The room, curated lives.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:And it's not necessarily a bad thing to ask to dig in, to kick the tires on something a little bit.
Sarah Zylstra:And so that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Sarah Zylstra:It can become paralyzing, though, and exhausting when you can never kick, when you're just only kicking tires and you never get in the car and drive somewhere.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I, you know, they are, they are the, you know, that byproduct of seeing churches run aground with overly charismatic leaders and all of that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Did any of the folks you interviewed or the research you've done, does that come up?
Dr. Ray Mitch:I like the Mars Hill thing that was done from CT a number of years.
Sarah Zylstra:That's a really good question, to be honest.
Sarah Zylstra:Like, that has not.
Sarah Zylstra:And I'm still talking with Gen Z students.
Sarah Zylstra:I almost wonder if that's more a millennial or even Gen X thing, because people my age, well, I'm right on the edge of Gen X and millennial, but my people my age will talk about, I think millennials talk about a lot, but I don't, I'm not actually hearing that a lot from our younger.
Sarah Zylstra:From like the Gen Z's.
Sarah Zylstra:I don't know if they just aren't old enough.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, maybe they just, I don't know, maybe they just haven't lived through it yet or.
Dr. Ray Mitch:That could very much be it.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean, I, you know, I forget that they're the same age.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I keep getting older and older and my jokes get worse and worse because they have no idea what I'm talking about.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And even the language, you had mentioned earlier about the language and kind of all the editing and self spectating they do on their language.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I got corrected today.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I said to somebody, I called him a dude and he said, how dated.
Sarah Zylstra:Shoot.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I had one student who said something, she was reacting to something.
Dr. Ray Mitch:She was looking at it at registration or something like that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And she said something to me about.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And this doesn't even work, bruh.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And it's like, bruh.
Sarah Zylstra:Yep, yep.
Sarah Zylstra:That's where we're at.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And you got two sons.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Right?
Dr. Ray Mitch:So.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, I mean, they say bra all the time.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah, my gosh.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:That was only in Soul Train when I was growing up.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And people don't even remember that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Oh, this is frightening.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So the church.
Dr. Ray Mitch:There was one other thing that caught my attention when you said.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And it was the couple, I think that was in Brooklyn who talked about pre evangelism creating spaces for this rather than assuming they know God.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Creating a space for them to bump into relationships that maybe know God.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:Isn't that interesting?
Dr. Ray Mitch:It is.
Sarah Zylstra:Which is really almost.
Sarah Zylstra:So Tim Keller, who wrote the Reason for God and then Making Sense of God.
Sarah Zylstra:The second one is actually almost like a prequel.
Sarah Zylstra:Like, okay, if you're in a culture that is less Christian and you can't even assume sort of a basic Christian knowledge or a basic Christian feeling of guilt or right and wrong.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:If it's right and wrong is changing all the time.
Sarah Zylstra:And so you have to have a different conversation.
Sarah Zylstra:And one thing that they're finding that is attractive to Gen Z is.
Sarah Zylstra:Makes sense.
Sarah Zylstra:Community.
Sarah Zylstra:And so to invite them.
Sarah Zylstra:Lots of campus ministers that I talked to today have kids in their Bible studies and coming to their stuff who aren't Christians, who are there because their friends are there.
Sarah Zylstra:Maybe they're questioning what they believe, maybe they're not.
Sarah Zylstra:But they're just there because somebody loves them and cares for them, and it feels.
Sarah Zylstra:They can feel the realness of the relationship.
Sarah Zylstra:And so that's what is bringing them in the door.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Right.
Dr. Ray Mitch:The authenticity of the person that brings them.
Sarah Zylstra:Yes, that person loves me.
Sarah Zylstra:I come here and I sense from my leader that she cares about me for real.
Sarah Zylstra:Not just because I look cute in her picture or something.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:Or not just because I can help in some way, but because just for who I am.
Sarah Zylstra:And then they.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, I'll come in that way.
Dr. Ray Mitch:The.
Dr. Ray Mitch:The Tony, I think Dentman that mentioned about how many of the students he was talking to were impacted by their grandparents, not their.
Dr. Ray Mitch:That's an amazing trend.
Sarah Zylstra:You know, I was just running into that again today because when I talk to, it's.
Sarah Zylstra:I think it's geographic.
Sarah Zylstra:This is so interesting.
Sarah Zylstra:When I talk to people who are like in the south or the Midwest, at a public university, they'll still tell me our kids here, it's their parents who had a Bible in the house, went to church on Christmas and Easter, at least knew who Jesus was.
Sarah Zylstra:Like there's some basic level.
Sarah Zylstra:And then I talked to a girl from Syracuse today, and she said the same thing as Toni Dentman who is in Chicago, which is.
Sarah Zylstra:It's a generation removed.
Sarah Zylstra:Like it's the grandparents.
Sarah Zylstra:And so I'm wondering if it is in sort of the more progressive areas, less Christian areas, northeast, Northwest, where it's a generation removed already.
Sarah Zylstra:And so that's a different conversation.
Sarah Zylstra:It's harder, it's slower going in those situations.
Dr. Ray Mitch:We have less access and all of that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean, we're out here in the Mountain west, and I think I see a lot of that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I'm now in the grandparent stage, and I find that my grandsons are learning about Jesus and about relationship with Jesus through us, not through their parents.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And that's what jumped out of me with that comment.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So it probably is regional.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You're probably right on that.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Because I think.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I think my kids.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean, we went to a church in St.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Charles, and I think we have a comparison point because we have friends that are still at that church, and their kids came out of that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I think to some degree, and this isn't if only kind of thinking, but if we had stayed there, I wonder how my kids would be different versus coming out here to Colorado.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And Colorado demographically has changed a lot since we've been here.
Dr. Ray Mitch:We've been here 24 years.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But, yeah, it's interesting to make the comparisons and see what happens with the grandparents, parents, and then the grandkids.
Sarah Zylstra:It's worth thinking about, because I do think who's around you probably affects our kids more than we think it does.
Sarah Zylstra:Sometimes we're sort of fatalistic, like.
Sarah Zylstra:Well, even if I'm like, I believe in a sovereign God, and so I believe, you know, and he's going to.
Sarah Zylstra:Of course God is sovereign, and he'll.
Sarah Zylstra:He'll.
Sarah Zylstra:If he's gonna get your kid, he's gonna get your kid.
Sarah Zylstra:But it does, you know.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:It does make you just wonder about the people who are around them.
Sarah Zylstra:I think about that a lot because I hear a lot from public school parents whose kids are struggling with their sexuality.
Sarah Zylstra:And you can just.
Sarah Zylstra:I can just.
Sarah Zylstra:It's a pattern.
Sarah Zylstra:And these are kids who spend a lot of time online or are in public schools.
Sarah Zylstra:And so it just feels like that.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:It's the people you surround yourself with.
Sarah Zylstra:Well, the Bible tells us.
Sarah Zylstra:Right.
Sarah Zylstra:Whoever walks in the council of the wise.
Sarah Zylstra:And so you're just.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, we probably should think about that more than we do as parents.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean, the challenge is feeling a little outmanned and outgunned because of the cultural milieu that we're in, you know, and our kids are in now.
Dr. Ray Mitch:My grandkids are in.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And even my.
Dr. Ray Mitch:My girls.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I had four girls, so I was outmanned outgunned and awash of estrogen.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And what?
Dr. Ray Mitch:They were right at the cusp of cell phones coming in.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I can still remember, you know, MySpace on a phone, like, oh, this is not good.
Dr. Ray Mitch:This is really not good.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And that was just the beginning.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I.
Dr. Ray Mitch: at least in mental health, is: Dr. Ray Mitch:And then, you know, a lot of mental health issues went up, went way up after that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And then social media took off and Facebook and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So anyway.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah, what.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So any.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Anyway, all of that to say thank you so much for your time.
Dr. Ray Mitch:If you kind of boil down some of what the church could do, and now you're a grizzled old veteran with Gen Z in the household, you know, outside of all the interviews that you did with that, I mean, you know, we've got a church that we go to here that is drawing.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I understand now why they're drawing what they are, because they are not talking about, you know, come to Jesus.
Dr. Ray Mitch:They're saying, come to relationship.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And that's drawing these kids in.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And then we can get into, you can belong before you believe and, you know, things like that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Is there any other kind of big ideas that you were walked away with after interviewing these folks?
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Zylstra:I think we just have to be.
Sarah Zylstra:For parents, I would just say you almost cannot be too careful with protecting your kids.
Sarah Zylstra:Almost every boy, this is what campus ministers tell me.
Sarah Zylstra:Almost every boy that sits in front of them is addicted to pornography.
Sarah Zylstra:And so the few that aren't are a breath of fresh air, but there aren't very many of them.
Sarah Zylstra:And I said to one guy, tell me what those kids have in common.
Sarah Zylstra:If you're not addicted to pornography, how did you get to be like that?
Sarah Zylstra:And he said three things.
Sarah Zylstra:You have Christian parents in your house who told you about God's design for marriage and told you you shouldn't be looking at pornography.
Sarah Zylstra:Don't be doing that.
Sarah Zylstra:The second thing is that they set really strict limits on your screen time.
Sarah Zylstra:And he said, I don't even know what would be too strict, because nobody has yet said.
Sarah Zylstra:Nobody who's grown out of it has yet turned around and said that was too strict.
Sarah Zylstra:So is there a too strict?
Sarah Zylstra:I don't know.
Sarah Zylstra:So being very, very careful with that.
Sarah Zylstra:And then the third thing is that they came out of a homeschool or a Christian school situation.
Sarah Zylstra:And I think the reason for that is that in public schools, in many public schools, pornography for young Men is seen as a normal or a healthy thing.
Sarah Zylstra:And so there would be no reason why you wouldn't be able to indulge yourself in that.
Sarah Zylstra:So I just think for parents it's so hard to get out of a pornography addiction for your girls, you can just look at the statistics on it.
Sarah Zylstra:So I just think don't be afraid to put as many limits as you possibly can put on your kids screen time.
Sarah Zylstra:And for kids, for Gen Z kids themselves, I would just say you're not stuck, you're not a terrible generation.
Sarah Zylstra:The Lord loves you.
Sarah Zylstra:There is good things that he has for you.
Sarah Zylstra:So open yourself up to belief in Jesus and the amazing way he can transform your life.
Sarah Zylstra:And then plugging in with his people, your friends at school and find yourself a good local church or whatever it is, a stained glass group, whatever it is, to connect with people.
Sarah Zylstra:And what.
Sarah Zylstra:Because part of our Christian life is walking with each other.
Sarah Zylstra:And so that's what I would say to them.
Sarah Zylstra:And if I was a church, I would just say reach out to those college students, put them to work and.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Yeah, they got all the energy, don't they?
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah, that's right.
Sarah Zylstra:They got the energy and they can do it and they got the time and they're.
Sarah Zylstra:Yeah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Well, that's fantastic.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I can't thank you enough.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Thank you for being a gaming gamer.
Dr. Ray Mitch:When it comes to being my guinea pig for doing these interviews, I probably will be in touch for other ideas and people that I can talk to like yourself.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But thanks so much for taking the time to do this, Sarah.
Dr. Ray Mitch:We really appreciate it.
Sarah Zylstra:You bet, no problem.
Dr. Ray Mitch:All right, well, there you have it.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I hope you enjoyed the interview.
Dr. Ray Mitch:It was a delight to spend some time with Sarah and get her observations.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Her article can be found on tgc.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Let's see.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I gotta get this right here.
Dr. Ray Mitch:If you look up six things Christians should know about Gen Z and it is on the Gospel Coalition website.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I will put a link on it in the show notes so that you can read it if you would.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So if you're interested in it.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But it was a good interview.
Dr. Ray Mitch:There were lots of things that I think she mentioned to talk about or about hopefully kind of framed in the experiences for Gen Z people.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And I suspect there are a fair number of them that are listening to this podcast and so I hope it helped out.
Dr. Ray Mitch:There will be others coming.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I have a crack team working on putting together a list for me so I can have some other people to interview.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And it will be on a variety of topics, not just the kind of surface characteristics that we had here with Gen Z.
Dr. Ray Mitch:But other topics that I think are of relevance that we talked about actually in terms of community, in terms of religious beliefs, spirituality and things like that that I think are going to be worth our while to take a look at, because after all, we're trying to create a place called the outpost that people can be a part of, that can talk about life as they know it and as they experience it, not as it should be, and a variety of other topics that are also part of that.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I mean, imagine just like with the intro that you walked in and you're looking for the latest information or the latest relationships and friendships of people that can walk with you on the journey through life and through your spiritual journey as well.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So again, thanks for joining me.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Thanks to Sarah Zylstra for taking some time out from her schedule to spend some time with us to reflect a little bit on what the world is like for the people that are in Gen Z.
Dr. Ray Mitch:All right, last of end of program reminders, which you're all accustomed to.
Dr. Ray Mitch:If you've been listening for any length of time.
Dr. Ray Mitch:This is usually when you turn it off, but I'll say it anyway.
Dr. Ray Mitch:SGI-net.org that's the home of the Stained Glass International community, and so you can find subscriptions on the website itself.
Dr. Ray Mitch:You can contact us through the contact form at the bottom of the page, but if you have questions or reactions or anything to this interview, please DM your questions to me on Instagram, where we can be found GI International, and I'm anxious to hear your feedback about the interview.
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Dr. Ray Mitch:Mitch.
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Dr. Ray Mitch:Don't be bashful.
Dr. Ray Mitch:We will not send you spam or anything of the sort, but it is a way to stay up to date with what's going on in the SGI online community and hopefully eventually our real time community as well.
Dr. Ray Mitch:So thanks again for joining me.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I appreciate the time that you've taken to listen in.
Dr. Ray Mitch:I hope it was encouraging.
Dr. Ray Mitch:And until next time, love you later.
Dr. Ray Mitch:Bye.
